Need racers and first hand advices ONLY ! :) - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #1 of 39 Old 04-04-2016, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Need racers and first hand advices ONLY ! :)

Hey guys,

I will start my post with an explanation to why I'm asking for racers and first hand advice ONLY. All of us here has a friend who has a friend that heard one bike is better than another...I'm not looking for rumors, I need facts :)
So, I'm doing track days and races in a small European league and I need help ASAP.
I own a fully moded 2010 ZX-10R track bike. It has Ohlins front and rear, QS, TC, LC, Rearset, Kawasaki Racing ECU (race track use only), Bodis Exhaust etc. It has 188hp on the Dyno.
I just came back from a race weekend in Greece and I got a chance to ride my friend's new 2015 10R It only has a flashed ECU, K&N air filter, Akra slipon and some race fairings, everything else is stock.
Power wise we were neck to neck but then it was time to brake into a corner and in that area I've noticed a huge difference. With his bike I could brake into corners and the bike was like a train on rails while with mine it felt more like a risk and the bike wasn't stable as I would like. The 2015 was so easy to handle and flick side to side, like a 600cc SSP bike, while mine felt more like a 12R.
I know my suspensions were way to stiff for my paste (I know that after a suspension expert checked it for me at the track) and probably that was the reason for some of the stuff I mentioned but unfortunately I couldn't check it as I crashed and sprained my shoulder.
My questions are:
with some suspensions work,
1. Will it be possible for a Gen3 10R to handle like the 2015?
2. Will it be possible for it to be flickable as a 2015?
3. Would it be possible to brake deep into corners with confidence, without dramas and head shakes and feel the front like on rails, again, like the 2015?
4. Do you think both bikes can do similar lap times (with the same rider and with putting the same effort)? It is important to me as I'm not Valentino Rossi and I need a bike that'll help me get to my full potential.
5. Should I, or Does it worth selling my Gen3 and get a 2013-15 model and do the same mods my friend has?
I know it is hard answering some of my questions but any help will be appreciated.
My friend and I usually has the same paste and we always progressed together. I want to know if I will have to work harder on my moded Gen3 just to match my friend paste while he has to put half the effort...
I hope you guys know what I'm talking about :)

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 39 Old 04-04-2016, 11:59 AM
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I know you said "racers only", but the short answer is no, you can't make a Gen 3 handle like the Gen 4. The biggest weakness on the older models is the frame. The older frames flex too much and the newer designed frames have addressed this. It's not just about suspension. With suspension mods, you'll be able to do better than what you have, but you won't be able to get to to where the newer models are. Depending on who you're racing against mind you.
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post #3 of 39 Old 04-04-2016, 12:34 PM
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Personally I would get your suspension sorted out properly and then ride again. No, your bike will not handle like your friends, they're different bikes, but it sounds like yours can be made quite a bit better.

A lot will come down to your experience as well. What level are you riding at? Same tires? Same pressures? Same brake pads? Rotors? Front master? How far off are your lap times on his bike compared to you on yours?

If you spend the time to develop your own bike it could be great and you'll love it. Moving to a new bike will take time to develop just like any other bike. I'm on year three with my 2011 ZX10 and it's still not perfect but every time I ride it gets closer.
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post #4 of 39 Old 04-04-2016, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SkyDork View Post
I know you said "racers only", but the short answer is no, you can't make a Gen 3 handle like the Gen 4. The biggest weakness on the older models is the frame. The older frames flex too much and the newer designed frames have addressed this. It's not just about suspension. With suspension mods, you'll be able to do better than what you have, but you won't be able to get to to where the newer models are. Depending on who you're racing against mind you.
So what you're saying is that the frame is what makes the bike harder to handle compared to the newer model?

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Originally Posted by dricked View Post
Personally I would get your suspension sorted out properly and then ride again. No, your bike will not handle like your friends, they're different bikes, but it sounds like yours can be made quite a bit better.

A lot will come down to your experience as well. What level are you riding at? Same tires? Same pressures? Same brake pads? Rotors? Front master? How far off are your lap times on his bike compared to you on yours?

If you spend the time to develop your own bike it could be great and you'll love it. Moving to a new bike will take time to develop just like any other bike. I'm on year three with my 2011 ZX10 and it's still not perfect but every time I ride it gets closer.
My level of riding is pretty fast, like 5 seconds slower than the track record (by a European champ).
Both bikes has the same tires, Dunlop D212 rear and KR 106 front.
Brake pads are different, mine are better (Vesrah RJL XX).
Stock rotors and M.C.
I guess there is like a 2 sec difference in lap times but its with my suspensions setting all messed up. As I said, I didn't had a chance to check it out due to a highside mishap :)
The other problem is that my bike is not with me.
I'm racing in Europe but live in Israel so it's not possible for me to check or play with the suspensions as much as I like...
I guess what I need to know is, Can I produce the same lap times on both bikes putting the same effort or will it always be easier with the newer model?
Thanks !
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post #5 of 39 Old 04-04-2016, 04:18 PM
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I'm all for suspension upgrades, but as someone heavily involved in the performance aspects of suspension and chassis development you will NEVER get the GEN 3 Zed-X 10 to handle even remotely as well as the GEN4 or newer bikes do. Kawasaki made a huge leap forward in the chassis design of the 2011 ZX-10R and despite what many will whine about when I say this the Gen 1 - 3 bikes handle like shit at speed and the professional race teams running those bikes with almost unlimited budgets at the top of the sport still struggled to make them safe to ride let alone competitive.

Kawasaki is continuing to build on those improvements of the Gen4 with the Gen5, but even with all that improvement aftermarket suspension linkages and steering offsets are still going to be the norm for the really fast guys that is just the way things are in the real world and the other manufacturers are right up there with them. All the current bikes are really really good bikes once modded properly, but at the same time older bikes especially from 5 or 6 or 8 years ago like the gen3 Kawi and the CBR1000RR were already deficient when they were new and really pale in comparison to the current crop of machines we have access to.
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post #6 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 03:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LDH View Post
I'm all for suspension upgrades, but as someone heavily involved in the performance aspects of suspension and chassis development you will NEVER get the GEN 3 Zed-X 10 to handle even remotely as well as the GEN4 or newer bikes do. Kawasaki made a huge leap forward in the chassis design of the 2011 ZX-10R and despite what many will whine about when I say this the Gen 1 - 3 bikes handle like shit at speed and the professional race teams running those bikes with almost unlimited budgets at the top of the sport still struggled to make them safe to ride let alone competitive.

Kawasaki is continuing to build on those improvements of the Gen4 with the Gen5, but even with all that improvement aftermarket suspension linkages and steering offsets are still going to be the norm for the really fast guys that is just the way things are in the real world and the other manufacturers are right up there with them. All the current bikes are really really good bikes once modded properly, but at the same time older bikes especially from 5 or 6 or 8 years ago like the gen3 Kawi and the CBR1000RR were already deficient when they were new and really pale in comparison to the current crop of machines we have access to.
Thanks for the reply.
From what I understand the Gen4 is much better than the Gen3 regarding handling and stability.
Is it the new frame that makes most if not all of the difference?
I've tried finding out more about the differences between the Gen4 models, like 2011 vs 2013 vs 2015 and beside a shitty Ohlins ESD they've put on in 2013 (I think) I can't really tell the differences.
I think I've read somewhere about changes in electronics but I don't remember where, anyway, I'm pretty sure they did more than just ESD and color schemes...
Can someone shed some light on that?
If anyone has more thoughts about my questions I'll be happy to hear.
Thanks guys !
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post #7 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
The 2015 was so easy to handle and flick side to side, like a 600cc SSP bike, while mine felt more like a 12R.
I know my suspensions were way to stiff
Should not be that bad with Ohlins suspention.
You say "way to stiff".
How far is zip tie from mechanical bottom?
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post #8 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
Thanks for the reply.
From what I understand the Gen4 is much better than the Gen3 regarding handling and stability.
Is it the new frame that makes most if not all of the difference?
I've tried finding out more about the differences between the Gen4 models, like 2011 vs 2013 vs 2015 and beside a shitty Ohlins ESD they've put on in 2013 (I think) I can't really tell the differences.
I think I've read somewhere about changes in electronics but I don't remember where, anyway, I'm pretty sure they did more than just ESD and color schemes...
Can someone shed some light on that?
If anyone has more thoughts about my questions I'll be happy to hear.
Thanks guys !
Same bikes except for the ESD as you mentioned.
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post #9 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
Should not be that bad with Ohlins suspention.
You say "way to stiff".
How far is zip tie from mechanical bottom?
About 4cm from bottom.

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Originally Posted by dricked View Post
Same bikes except for the ESD as you mentioned.
Really? I could swear I've read somewhere that the 2013 or 2015 has something different with the traction control or some other electronics stuff. Or maybe the T/C has more options/settings?
I know the first model (2011/2) had a recall about the drive train thingy, Would it be safe to assume that if it was changed on a 2011/2 bike it's OK to buy one?
Anyway, If they are really the same bikes it's kinda good news for me :)

THANKS !
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post #10 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
About 4cm from bottom.



Really? I could swear I've read somewhere that the 2013 or 2015 has something different with the traction control or some other electronics stuff. Or maybe the T/C has more options/settings?
I know the first model (2011/2) had a recall about the drive train thingy, Would it be safe to assume that if it was changed on a 2011/2 bike it's OK to buy one?
Anyway, If they are really the same bikes it's kinda good news for me :)

THANKS !
No same electronics. I'm on a 2011 and I haven't had any issues. Motor was rebuilt for maintenance purposes and so far it's been a good bike. I like that the electronics (kit ecu/software) are easy to use and simple but at the same time I'm chomping at the bit to get a new 16 because of the updated electronics.

I had issues of the bike being unstable under braking last year. I bumped my front tire pressure up 4psi (37psi on Dunlop slicks) and kept the front a bit higher from bottoming then what you're running, it really helped a lot. The rear feels more planted as the front isn't compressing as much and overloading the front tire. Does the bike have adjustable triples? If not that will make a BIG difference too.

I think you could get your older bike to be better then what it is but IMO you'll be happier on the newer bike once you get it sorted.
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Last edited by dricked; 04-05-2016 at 06:53 AM.
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