Need racers and first hand advices ONLY ! :) - Page 4 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #31 of 39 Old 04-09-2016, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
Sorry for my ignorance regarding the rear shock linkage, what's the propose of having one and do I have to replace the rear shock as well or can I use it with the stock one?
They say stock shock is by far weakest point in this bike! When I got my gen4, then I replaced it without even trying. You may revalve it, but competition boys go with real deal mostly.
Gen4 stock link is too "strong", ratio is ca. 10% off from sweetpoint for sportbikes. Purpose of an aftermarket link is to make rear perfect, where with stock link it may be difficult to chase good valving setup, tyre wear, drive squat, edge grip. But I'm on stock link and cannot comment on difference myself.
Brembo MC I just bought from Omniaracing for 250e, went with RCS17 as stock caliper pistons are 30mm and will try 30/32mm Nissin monoblocks (2013 ZX6R).
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post #32 of 39 Old 04-09-2016, 07:22 AM
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They say stock shock is by far weakest point in this bike! When I got my gen4, then I replaced it without even trying. You may revalve it, but competition boys go with real deal mostly.
Gen4 stock link is too "strong", ratio is ca. 10% off from sweetpoint for sportbikes. Purpose of an aftermarket link is to make rear perfect, where with stock link it may be difficult to chase good valving setup, tyre wear, drive squat, edge grip. But I'm on stock link and cannot comment on difference myself.
Brembo MC I just bought from Omniaracing for 250e, went with RCS17 as stock caliper pistons are 30mm and will try 30/32mm Nissin monoblocks (2013 ZX6R).
The stock linkage is a progressive linkage. The aftermarket linkage is linear. This makes the force on the shock the same through the entire stroke instead of getting firmer near the bottom of the stroke and plush up top.

You went with a 17rcs on the Tockicos that came on the bike? I use a 19x18 and wouldn't want to have to pull any harder then I do to slow the bike down. Trail braking is not an issue.
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post #33 of 39 Old 04-09-2016, 03:58 PM
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The RCS17 is made specifically for the M50 type Brembo calipers used on many OEM applications including the gen5
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post #34 of 39 Old 04-09-2016, 04:31 PM
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The stock linkage is a progressive linkage. The aftermarket linkage is linear. This makes the force on the shock the same through the entire stroke instead of getting firmer near the bottom of the stroke and plush up top.
To be exact some aftermarket linkages are linear (Kyle .5%, MSS3.5) and other somewhat progressive (Kyle 5%, MSS4). In fact non-linearity of stock link is exactly same as Kyle 5%, only ratio is very different.

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You went with a 17rcs on the Tockicos that came on the bike? I use a 19x18 and wouldn't want to have to pull any harder then I do to slow the bike down. Trail braking is not an issue.
You got it reversed. With 17mm MC piston you need to pull with less force, not harder. RCS17 came out to be used with smaller caliper pistons like in M50 (30/30mm). RCS19 is to be used with Brembo high performance calipers having piston sizes 30/34, 34/34, 32/36. Hydaulic ratio is the key word. That ratio is very low when RCS19 is used with 30mm (Tokicos) calipers and lever feels "wooden". Some Ducatistis with M50 realized that OEM Brembo 16mm MC is much better compared to RCS19.
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post #35 of 39 Old 04-09-2016, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
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To be exact some aftermarket linkages are linear (Kyle .5%, MSS3.5) and other somewhat progressive (Kyle 5%, MSS4). In fact non-linearity of stock link is exactly same as Kyle 5%, only ratio is very different.



You got it reversed. With 17mm MC piston you need to pull with less force, not harder. RCS17 came out to be used with smaller caliper pistons like in M50 (30/30mm). RCS19 is to be used with Brembo high performance calipers having piston sizes 30/34, 34/34, 32/36. Hydaulic ratio is the key word. That ratio is very low when RCS19 is used with 30mm (Tokicos) calipers and lever feels "wooden". Some Ducatistis with M50 realized that OEM Brembo 16mm MC is much better compared to RCS19.
I don't know the exact rates of the linkages, I know the purpose which is what I stated.

I'm not getting into this front brake shit again. My brakes are nowhere near wooden, I also witnessed guys lapping very quickly with a 19mm front master on the new brembo calipers with no complaints.

Last edited by dricked; 04-09-2016 at 06:04 PM.
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post #36 of 39 Old 04-09-2016, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
To be exact some aftermarket linkages are linear (Kyle .5%, MSS3.5) and other somewhat progressive (Kyle 5%, MSS4). In fact non-linearity of stock link is exactly same as Kyle 5%, only ratio is very different.



You got it reversed. With 17mm MC piston you need to pull with less force, not harder. RCS17 came out to be used with smaller caliper pistons like in M50 (30/30mm). RCS19 is to be used with Brembo high performance calipers having piston sizes 30/34, 34/34, 32/36. Hydaulic ratio is the key word. That ratio is very low when RCS19 is used with 30mm (Tokicos) calipers and lever feels "wooden". Some Ducatistis with M50 realized that OEM Brembo 16mm MC is much better compared to RCS19.
Good Stuff.

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post #37 of 39 Old 04-12-2016, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
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Everything I have done to mine is listed here.

The suspension and linear race linkage were the priority mods and then the Calipers and Master Cylinder.
ROGUE RACING Gen 4 ZX-10R Track Bike Build
That's basically how my track build went. Only other things I'd do in addition to that is make the bike more crash-resistant. Clip-ons, rearsets, engine covers, etc. Won't help lap times, but it'll be a heck of a lot cheaper to fix if it does tumble.

My ZX10 was on the track one time before I had the suspension done. The damn thing would fight me getting it turned in, then it would run wide if I even thought about picking up the throttle before the bike was pointed. The rear would pump up and down when I finally did whack the throttle open and the back tire would be skating all over the place. I was still king of the intermediate group at that particular track day but I never had to work that hard to go slow.

It's amazing. I never had a moments trouble with the brakes or suspension on my ZX10 until I took it to a track day. Just shows how much harder one can push their bike in a controlled environment versus squidding around on the street thinking you're King Dingaling...

Ohlins shock and 30mm cartridges first, done by a local shop that normally builds R6s. Still using the OEM linkage for now, I'll probably explore other options in the off season.

The suspension was a huge improvement. Huge. After two days of seat time I was running midpack in the advanced group, but then the front brakes began to fade.

LDH to the rescue! Hooked me up with a 19x18 Brembo master and CL C60 brake pads. My fade problems disappeared and the increased level of control had me pushing my brake markers back and trailbraking through corners with ease. This alone gave me the confidence to say "fuck it" and start racing with CCS. I can only imagine how much better they could be with billet calipers and bigger floating rotors, but then I would be restricted to superbike classes.

My first race is this weekend. Wish me luck.
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post #38 of 39 Old 04-15-2016, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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That's basically how my track build went. Only other things I'd do in addition to that is make the bike more crash-resistant. Clip-ons, rearsets, engine covers, etc. Won't help lap times, but it'll be a heck of a lot cheaper to fix if it does tumble.

My ZX10 was on the track one time before I had the suspension done. The damn thing would fight me getting it turned in, then it would run wide if I even thought about picking up the throttle before the bike was pointed. The rear would pump up and down when I finally did whack the throttle open and the back tire would be skating all over the place. I was still king of the intermediate group at that particular track day but I never had to work that hard to go slow.

It's amazing. I never had a moments trouble with the brakes or suspension on my ZX10 until I took it to a track day. Just shows how much harder one can push their bike in a controlled environment versus squidding around on the street thinking you're King Dingaling...

Ohlins shock and 30mm cartridges first, done by a local shop that normally builds R6s. Still using the OEM linkage for now, I'll probably explore other options in the off season.

The suspension was a huge improvement. Huge. After two days of seat time I was running midpack in the advanced group, but then the front brakes began to fade.

LDH to the rescue! Hooked me up with a 19x18 Brembo master and CL C60 brake pads. My fade problems disappeared and the increased level of control had me pushing my brake markers back and trailbraking through corners with ease. This alone gave me the confidence to say "fuck it" and start racing with CCS. I can only imagine how much better they could be with billet calipers and bigger floating rotors, but then I would be restricted to superbike classes.

My first race is this weekend. Wish me luck.
First of all, Good Luck with your race !! Tell us how it was :)
Second, I'm surprised you had problems with the Gen4 stock suspensions...we didn't. We are riding with the fast group and the bike is amazing.
My friends rode 4 or 5 days during our last event and the bike was rock solid. It never went out of line and gave him any problems, not once. He was going like 4 seconds off the track record and the bike was superb.
I tried it for 4 laps and immediately felt a huge difference, especially with the front comparing to my Gen3, and I have Ohlins front and rear.
The bike was so easy to ride, trailbrake into corners and doing everything I wanted with calm and confidence.
I was actually set on buying a CBR1000RR for the track. I rode one and it was so good I fell in love...and then I rode my friend's Gen4 and now I'm in trouble :)
I just got an offer for 2014 CBR1000RR track bike, with everything on it, for a great price and I don't know what to do. Every Gen4 I found was like 1500EUR more and they are all stock (maybe with slipon) and are all 2011/12...So now I'm in a lost :)

BTW, regarding the brake pads, are you familiar with Vesrah brand? If you don't, try them out, they will blow you away !
I had them on my ZX636R track bike, with stock M/C, stock calipers and braided lines, and the braking power was sooo awesome. They also last forever. I had them for 2 or 3 racing events and 2 free practice and when we replaced them my mechanic told me they still had life !
I have them on my ZX10R track bike as well, only with braided lines and I have nothing but good things to say about them. They are expensive but worth every penny.
I actually read about Carbon Lorraine pads and I found a comparison online stating that the Vesra are a step up from all the other brands, like they are in a different level. Second place were the CL59/60.
Anyway, just thought I'll share my experience with them :)
Now I'm going back online, searching for a comparison between a Gen4 and a CBR to see what everybody say. The lack of power of the Honda in high RPM is one of the big drawbacks I have so I'm looking for a flashed ECU one to see what it does to it :)
Have a great weekend guys !
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post #39 of 39 Old 04-18-2016, 08:55 AM
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The weekend went well. I finished 9th in amateur unlimited superbike, 4th in the rookies cup and 7th in unlimited supersport. I signed up late so I was gridded at the back for every race. Each race had between 15 and 20 entrants.

I'm aware of Vesrah pads, I've had a couple sets of them but I don't recall the exact model. The ones I used had a ton of initial bite which I don't really care for on the track. I don't like grabby brakes because they unsettle the bike. Vesrahs are also expensive. Not saying they're crap, or not worth the cost, because that's really up to the end user to determine. I'm happy with the CL brake pads, I like the feel of them, they don't fade and they're reasonably priced.

As for why I had trouble with the standard suspension components, I really don't know for certain. I suspect that my preference for stiffer suspension may have something to do with it. My first track bike (GSXR600 which I still have) was a retired race bike and it was set up for a rider who was 30lbs heavier than me and pretty fast.

At my home track this past weekend, I was around 8 seconds per lap off the pace of the faster expert racers which is 4 seconds off the fastest AMA riders pace. I don't know which track you're talking about, but if you're in the UK then you've probably heard of Mark Heckles. He's a fast expert racer, and was riding at the same track that I was this past weekend. He was running about 4 seconds off the lap record on his R6 and I can assure you that he was not on the original suspension components. If your friend can do that with an unmolested 10r then he is an incredibly talented rider.

Just to clarify, I'm not out to set the world on fire. I just wanted something more than "another trackday" and I've found what I wanted in racing. I'm hooked and I can't wait for the next round. My goal was to finish every race, not crash and finish ahead of last place. I did all of that and finished mid-pack or better in all three classes.
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