Need racers and first hand advices ONLY ! :) - Page 3 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #21 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 10:28 AM
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Ok I am the king of making old shit work and my 2004 1000RR was never a good handling bike regardless of how much money was thrown at it. It was just a poor design and Honda got their ass handed to them with that model repeatedly at the club, national and world level no matter what suspension or chassis mods they made to the bike. I loved my RR though and supplemented it with the best suspension and HRC race parts I could get my hands on. As an instructor and test rider using that bike for 50-60 events every season I got very very comfortable on it and I knew every thing it was going to do before it did it in every condition on every track. My last crash on it was 3 years ago at a little goatpath in California called Buttonwillow. I was hauling ass doing 1:52's for 5 sessions with a couple other pro racers (which I am not) and of course they were all on cutting edge machinery and there I was on this 10 year old bike riding it at 110% just to keep up with their brand new bikes. I ate shit and got a concussion because I was trying to push the limits of an older bike and quite frankly the mental focus and physical effort involved in hustling a turd like the 04 1000RR caught me out. My biggest relief is that I did not take someone else out with me at that pace. You cannot consistently expend that kind of effort at 110% all the time and not make a mistake somewhere along the line or at least I cannot...

Now to be totally honest I have not done a 1:52 on my Gen4 at Buttonwillow not even since they repaved the track. The reason why varies from the basic fact that I don't have a gazzillion miles on the seat of this ZX-10R like I did my old 1000RR to the idea that I don't feel the need to put it or myself in harms way as I REALLY don't want to wad this bike or myself up any time soon. I'm getting too old for that, but I can tell you this I was running 1:56's there the last time I was at Buttonwillow and I was totally comfortable at that pace and not even beginning to tax my ability or the prowess of the Gen4. I was riding within 4 seconds of my personal best lap record set on my old 1000RR, but doing it with about half the effort.

The reason these new bikes keep coming out with improvements and why we put expensive suspension parts on them is so we can ride faster with less drama. We want to be able to go quicker around a racetrack and remain safer while doing it. That is what a newer bike is going to offer you and if you are racing competitively for contingency you really owe it to yourself and the others you share the track with to be as safe as possible.
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post #22 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
The bike was too hard to ride.
I didn't have any feedback from the front, I couldn't tell if it was holding or not.
It was SOOO hard to flick the bike from side to side at the chicane or left to right apexes.
Under braking it was fine
I love the Gen3 but after only 4 laps with the Gen4 I understood how much better it is. And it is almost stock !
I would suspect front end is sitting too high or/and forks are compressed too little. Make tests by turning out all fork preload, move forks through clams in 4mm increments until braking becomes unstabile or it wants to turn too much inside.
What else can cause SOOO hard flicking? Too long wheelbase, flat swingarm, low seat heigth, bent frame?
How the hell can stock gen4 feel that much better compared to your top suspention unless there is something simple wrong with it?
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post #23 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Ok I am the king of making old shit work and my 2004 1000RR was never a good handling bike regardless of how much money was thrown at it. It was just a poor design and Honda got their ass handed to them with that model repeatedly at the club, national and world level no matter what suspension or chassis mods they made to the bike. I loved my RR though and supplemented it with the best suspension and HRC race parts I could get my hands on. As an instructor and test rider using that bike for 50-60 events every season I got very very comfortable on it and I knew every thing it was going to do before it did it in every condition on every track. My last crash on it was 3 years ago at a little goatpath in California called Buttonwillow. I was hauling ass doing 1:52's for 5 sessions with a couple other pro racers (which I am not) and of course they were all on cutting edge machinery and there I was on this 10 year old bike riding it at 110% just to keep up with their brand new bikes. I ate shit and got a concussion because I was trying to push the limits of an older bike and quite frankly the mental focus and physical effort involved in hustling a turd like the 04 1000RR caught me out. My biggest relief is that I did not take someone else out with me at that pace. You cannot consistently expend that kind of effort at 110% all the time and not make a mistake somewhere along the line or at least I cannot...

Now to be totally honest I have not done a 1:52 on my Gen4 at Buttonwillow not even since they repaved the track. The reason why varies from the basic fact that I don't have a gazzillion miles on the seat of this ZX-10R like I did my old 1000RR to the idea that I don't feel the need to put it or myself in harms way as I REALLY don't want to wad this bike or myself up any time soon. I'm getting too old for that, but I can tell you this I was running 1:56's there the last time I was at Buttonwillow and I was totally comfortable at that pace and not even beginning to tax my ability or the prowess of the Gen4. I was riding within 4 seconds of my personal best lap record set on my old 1000RR, but doing it with about half the effort.

The reason these new bikes keep coming out with improvements and why we put expensive suspension parts on them is so we can ride faster with less drama. We want to be able to go quicker around a racetrack and remain safer while doing it. That is what a newer bike is going to offer you and if you are racing competitively for contingency you really owe it to yourself and the others you share the track with to be as safe as possible.
Thanks for sharing this story LDH, I think you've just summed up all my thoughts and wonders in this story.
This is exactly what I was thinking, I just thought it would be possible to achieve with some suspension settings on my Gen3.
I'll start looking for a 2011/12 ZX10R.
I think its better to find a stock one with low mileage as I prefer doing the modding myself, this way I'll know exactly what I have.
My friend's 2015 has it ECU flashed, GPR steering damper, QS, K&N air filter and Akra slipon.
I will also want to upgrade the front brake, I'm running Vesrah XX on my Gen3 and they are amazing !! (I will take them off and put them on my future Gen4)
From your experience with that bike, What else do you guys think I should do without touching the suspensions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
I would suspect front end is sitting too high or/and forks are compressed too little. Make tests by turning out all fork preload, move forks through clams in 4mm increments until braking becomes unstabile or it wants to turn too much inside.
What else can cause SOOO hard flicking? Too long wheelbase, flat swingarm, low seat heigth, bent frame?
How the hell can stock gen4 feel that much better compared to your top suspention unless there is something simple wrong with it?
My Gen3 isn't damaged, bent nor has a problem with the suspensions, that I know for a fact (checked before bought).
As I mentioned in my first post, the suspensions had bad setting for my skill level, I should've been 5 or 6 second faster in order to really use these settings. (at list that's what the suspension guy at the track told me after my crash)
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I can go at list 2 seconds faster on my current bike but as LDH so nicely put it, I want to use half the effort and keep it as safe as possible. I'm not a professional racer, I don't get paid for that and I don't do it as much as I would like (due to financial reasons of course) so I think getting a newer model, say a 2011, will get me closer to my personal limit faster and will probably help me improve myself and get my limit up a notch :)

Thanks !
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post #24 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 04:02 PM
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Everything I have done to mine is listed here.

The suspension and linear race linkage were the priority mods and then the Calipers and Master Cylinder.
ROGUE RACING Gen 4 ZX-10R Track Bike Build
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post #25 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Everything I have done to mine is listed here.

The suspension and linear race linkage were the priority mods and then the Calipers and Master Cylinder.
ROGUE RACING Gen 4 ZX-10R Track Bike Build
My God! Are you kidding me ?!!! Hahaha
I don't think a MotoGP bike has half the stuff you've got :)
Look, I'm gonna probably put a slip on, rearsets, brake lines, steering damper, K&N filter, race fairings, QS and flash the ECU.
I've actually read about ECUunleashed but I didn't know their support is that bad. Where do you recommend I should flash the ECU?
Does installing a full exhaust system is a must or does a slipon will be enough?
You have to remember I'm doing it as a hobby and I can't afford myself to invest so much money modding it like you did in yours... :)
Let me ask you this differently. Can you write down the most important mods a guy like me should do in order to get best stability and handling, get like 190 real hp (my Gen3 currently has 188hp on a dyno) and have decent brakes?

Thanks man, you're a life saver :)
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post #26 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
My God! Are you kidding me ?!!! Hahaha
I don't think a MotoGP bike has half the stuff you've got :)
Look, I'm gonna probably put a slip on, rearsets, brake lines, steering damper, K&N filter, race fairings, QS and flash the ECU.
I've actually read about ECUunleashed but I didn't know their support is that bad. Where do you recommend I should flash the ECU?
Does installing a full exhaust system is a must or does a slipon will be enough?
You have to remember I'm doing it as a hobby and I can't afford myself to invest so much money modding it like you did in yours... :)
Let me ask you this differently. Can you write down the most important mods a guy like me should do in order to get best stability and handling, get like 190 real hp (my Gen3 currently has 188hp on a dyno) and have decent brakes?

Thanks man, you're a life saver :)

I cannot afford all that crap either... I work in the industry so I get it all free or greatly discounted and my build is pretty tame compared to some of the guys on this site.


ZX10Archer on this site is the resident guru for flashing ECU's
ME Motorsports - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net

Slip-on is just fine and I have had zero problems out of the relatively inexpensive M4 standard length slip-on I have been using and only just lucked into an ARATA Full Titanium system a few weeks ago
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post #27 of 39 Old 04-07-2016, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
I cannot afford all that crap either... I work in the industry so I get it all free or greatly discounted and my build is pretty tame compared to some of the guys on this site.


ZX10Archer on this site is the resident guru for flashing ECU's
ME Motorsports - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net

Slip-on is just fine and I have had zero problems out of the relatively inexpensive M4 standard length slip-on I have been using and only just lucked into an ARATA Full Titanium system a few weeks ago
I will check it out with ZX10Archer, Thanks !
I will probably look for a small slipon. A race bike tends to fall and logic dictates the smaller the exhaust is the less chance it will get in the way :)
What about the other stuff, any thoughts?
("Can you write down the most important mods a guy like me should do in order to get best stability and handling, get like 190 real hp (my Gen3 currently has 188hp on a dyno) and have decent brakes?")
Thank you.
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post #28 of 39 Old 04-07-2016, 08:35 AM
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Change the master/pads/lines, have it tuned with the slip on, rear shock linkage with suspension will get you a decent starting point. If you can find a set of adjustable triples you'll add more tune-ability to get the bike where you want it. If you want a true 190hp you're going to be into the motor and spending some good money but that depends on the Dyno and how "real" you want to get lol. My bikes a real 180hp with minor head work and put down 170 real hp with a pipe/kit ecu.
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post #29 of 39 Old 04-08-2016, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dricked View Post
Change the master/pads/lines, have it tuned with the slip on, rear shock linkage with suspension will get you a decent starting point. If you can find a set of adjustable triples you'll add more tune-ability to get the bike where you want it. If you want a true 190hp you're going to be into the motor and spending some good money but that depends on the Dyno and how "real" you want to get lol. My bikes a real 180hp with minor head work and put down 170 real hp with a pipe/kit ecu.
I will see what I can do about the brake MC, they are pretty expensive. I never used Brembo MC before, the Vesrah pads with braided lines and stock calipers/mc provided a lot of feel and braking power. I once had a huge unplanned rolling stoppie in Rijeka racetrack with my ZX-6R :)
Sorry for my ignorance regarding the rear shock linkage, what's the propose of having one and do I have to replace the rear shock as well or can I use it with the stock one?
My Gen3 has 188hp on the Dyno. At list this what it had when I bought it. All I know is that it has Wiseco pistons and a genuine Kawasaki Racing ECU (not stock flashed one).
I'm not sure what other mods the engine had. The reason I'm looking for a high HP is because I'm kinda got used to having so much power.
I think I'm gonna ask my mechanic to run it on the Dyno along side with my buddy's Gen4 just to see the differences. When I tested his Gen4 it had plenty of power, in fact on the straight we were neck to neck.
Thanks !
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post #30 of 39 Old 04-08-2016, 08:09 PM
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Not sure how much they cost where you are but here they're the price of two sets of brake pads. They're worth every penny.
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