Need racers and first hand advices ONLY ! :) - Page 2 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
 15Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 07:30 AM
REPOST Enforcement Mod
 
SkyDork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wesley Chapel, FL (The Dub-C)
Posts: 13,019
Posting Frequency
           
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
Really? I could swear I've read somewhere that the 2013 or 2015 has something different with the traction control or some other electronics stuff. Or maybe the T/C has more options/settings?
I know the first model (2011/2) had a recall about the drive train thingy, Would it be safe to assume that if it was changed on a 2011/2 bike it's OK to buy one?
Anyway, If they are really the same bikes it's kinda good news for me :)

THANKS !
There was no recall for drive train issues with the earlier bikes. The only difference from 2012 to 2013 was the electronic steering damper.

I may not be perfect, but at least I don't ride a Suzuki.

Ridding the Internet of bad grammar, 1 post at a time.
#WordCrimes





Last edited by SkyDork; 04-05-2016 at 08:01 AM.
SkyDork is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 09:48 AM
Track Day Rider
 
Carlos76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 236
Posting Frequency
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotem_46 View Post
About 4cm from bottom.
4cm is too much, specially for trail braking
If that 4cm is visible tube (mechanical bottom is maybe at 1.5cm tube being visible), then 2.5cm may still be too much.
Don't know gen3, I'm racing gen4 with 2.5cm visible (1cm from mech. botton) and get nice "rear tyre light" feeling at hardest braking.

What is the bike doing or not doing?
Front end "dancing" with hard braking?
Or does it not want to lean over easily and you are fighting it to get turned?

Too stiff springs for your weigth, oil level accidentally tooo high, wheelbase too long, swingarm too flat?
Carlos76 is offline  
post #13 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 04:25 PM
GP Star
 
dricked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,142
Posting Frequency
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
4cm is too much, specially for trail braking
If that 4cm is visible tube (mechanical bottom is maybe at 1.5cm tube being visible), then 2.5cm may still be too much.
Don't know gen3, I'm racing gen4 with 2.5cm visible (1cm from mech. botton) and get nice "rear tyre light" feeling at hardest braking.

What is the bike doing or not doing?
Front end "dancing" with hard braking?
Or does it not want to lean over easily and you are fighting it to get turned?

Too stiff springs for your weigth, oil level accidentally tooo high, wheelbase too long, swingarm too flat?
That depends entirely on the track. If your braking and using almost all of your available stroke and it's getting there very quickly you'll have that unstable feeling. I rode last week on a smooth track and had 2" left before bottoming and the bike felt very stable under hard braking. You've got far less trail when the forks are compressed which will give the bike the "tucking" feeling.
dricked is offline  
 
post #14 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 04:35 PM
GP Rider
 
evallarta1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Collinsville IL (by St Louis)
Posts: 1,428
Posting Frequency
      
Instead of asking yourself can I get my bike to handle like the 2015, ask yourself can you get comfortable with what you have. If you can get comfortable on the bike and work with the deficiencies, then generally you will be able to drop time. It sounds like your bike is fighting you more than working with you which in turn is causing issues. Find yourself a good suspension/geometry tuner and work with them to figure out what issues you are having and then work to fix them. If you can sort out the bike you might be surprised how fast you can get.
bluedevil likes this.

Stupidity and Motivation are a dangerous combination

Velocity Calibrations
evallarta1 is offline  
post #15 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 04:55 PM
LDH
GP Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,391
Posting Frequency
    
Quote:
Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Instead of asking yourself can I get my bike to handle like the 2015, ask yourself can you get comfortable with what you have. If you can get comfortable on the bike and work with the deficiencies, then generally you will be able to drop time. It sounds like your bike is fighting you more than working with you which in turn is causing issues. Find yourself a good suspension/geometry tuner and work with them to figure out what issues you are having and then work to fix them. If you can sort out the bike you might be surprised how fast you can get.

There is a lot of validity to that, but I have to point out that if you used that same argument as if the OP had a 1987 FZR600 and his buddy was on a 2016 R6 the point you make still holds true, but so does the end result. A better handling, more compliant bike allows the rider of any skill level to be more proficient and comfortable. Granted the disparity is exaggerated between an FZR and an R6, but that performance gap still exists with newer bikes.

If you take the effort and modifications it takes to get comfortable on a Gen3 with the handling woes inherent in that model and put that effort and mods into getting comfortable on a Gen4 you would still be that much more ahead of the curve. We aren't talking about subjective street riding here as the OP is interested only in tangible track results.
LDH is offline  
post #16 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 06:01 PM
GP Rider
 
evallarta1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Collinsville IL (by St Louis)
Posts: 1,428
Posting Frequency
      
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
There is a lot of validity to that, but I have to point out that if you used that same argument as if the OP had a 1987 FZR600 and his buddy was on a 2016 R6 the point you make still holds true, but so does the end result. A better handling, more compliant bike allows the rider of any skill level to be more proficient and comfortable. Granted the disparity is exaggerated between an FZR and an R6, but that performance gap still exists with newer bikes.

If you take the effort and modifications it takes to get comfortable on a Gen3 with the handling woes inherent in that model and put that effort and mods into getting comfortable on a Gen4 you would still be that much more ahead of the curve. We aren't talking about subjective street riding here as the OP is interested only in tangible track results.
Well that goes without saying, and if he was on a '87 FZR my answer would be different. But at what point is the dollar value worth the performance gain compared to massaging his current platform. In otherwords, would he get that much of a "performance advantage" dollar for dollar by selling a gen 3 to get a gen 4 vs spending some time and a little money getting his gen 3 setup to make him comfortable. I personally just dont see it.

Also you and I both know that 95% of the riders out there don't even ride the bikes to their full potential, so things like chassis flex may not even be a issue.
bluedevil likes this.

Stupidity and Motivation are a dangerous combination

Velocity Calibrations
evallarta1 is offline  
post #17 of 39 Old 04-05-2016, 09:52 PM
LDH
GP Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,391
Posting Frequency
    
Quote:
Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Also you and I both know that 95% of the riders out there don't even ride the bikes to their full potential, so things like chassis flex may not even be a issue.
I agree with that too, but there is more to it than just chassis flex. As much as everyone likes to pretend that their choice of bike is the best sportbike EVER that is just not the case in reality. Chassis flex aside there are glaring problems with geometry and even engine degree orientation in the Gen 3 that makes it handle in an undesirable manner. If you take the same rider with an aptitude or at the very least desire to ride quickly around a race track and put him/her on a Gen3 and then a Gen4 I guarantee you the lap times will be quicker on the Gen4. Additionally if you properly mod the Gen3 and the Gen4 in the ways and with the parts we know improve the handling then the disparity will be even greater. The Gen4 is a much more capable bike than any of the iterations before it and again we are talking about realized results on a racetrack not subjective street riding.
evallarta1 likes this.
LDH is offline  
post #18 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Rotem_46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 29
Posting Frequency
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
4cm is too much, specially for trail braking
If that 4cm is visible tube (mechanical bottom is maybe at 1.5cm tube being visible), then 2.5cm may still be too much.
Don't know gen3, I'm racing gen4 with 2.5cm visible (1cm from mech. botton) and get nice "rear tyre light" feeling at hardest braking.

What is the bike doing or not doing?
Front end "dancing" with hard braking?
Or does it not want to lean over easily and you are fighting it to get turned?

Too stiff springs for your weigth, oil level accidentally tooo high, wheelbase too long, swingarm too flat?
The bike was too hard to ride. I did 8 laps and was exhausted. In March I did 17 laps at the same track and I was fine, a little tired but OK.
I didn't have any feedback from the front, I couldn't tell if it was holding or not.
It was SOOO hard to flick the bike from side to side at the chicane or left to right apexes.
Under braking it was fine but I wasn't pushing it like I can, I didn't had the time to do so due to my shoulder mishap.
Regarding the suspension, I just got them rebuilt by Ohlins in Italy so I know they are OK :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Instead of asking yourself can I get my bike to handle like the 2015, ask yourself can you get comfortable with what you have. If you can get comfortable on the bike and work with the deficiencies, then generally you will be able to drop time. It sounds like your bike is fighting you more than working with you which in turn is causing issues. Find yourself a good suspension/geometry tuner and work with them to figure out what issues you are having and then work to fix them. If you can sort out the bike you might be surprised how fast you can get.
I actually did find a good suspension guy. I had a race in Misano on last September and I've met a WSBK suspension guy. He was Marco Melandry and Matt Meladin suspension guy :)
He adjusted my suspension but the bike was too stiff.
I met a different suspension guy last week, he was the one to tell me that the bike is way too stiff for my skill.
As I mentioned before, I live in Israel and my bike is in Romania so I can't spend time fixing and adjusting it. I only have 5 days to ride each time I fly so you can understand why I'm short on time.
I love the Gen3 but after only 4 laps with the Gen4 I understood how much better it is. And it is almost stock !
I think I can go down a few more seconds with my bike but I believe it would require less effort to do so on the Gen4.
I spoke to my mechanic and told him I would love to keep the Gen3 and see whats the best I can do with it and then switch to a Gen4 but I'm affraid it is not an option for me. I must decide between the tow.
Rotem_46 is offline  
post #19 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Rotem_46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 29
Posting Frequency
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
I agree with that too, but there is more to it than just chassis flex. As much as everyone likes to pretend that their choice of bike is the best sportbike EVER that is just not the case in reality. Chassis flex aside there are glaring problems with geometry and even engine degree orientation in the Gen 3 that makes it handle in an undesirable manner. If you take the same rider with an aptitude or at the very least desire to ride quickly around a race track and put him/her on a Gen3 and then a Gen4 I guarantee you the lap times will be quicker on the Gen4. Additionally if you properly mod the Gen3 and the Gen4 in the ways and with the parts we know improve the handling then the disparity will be even greater. The Gen4 is a much more capable bike than any of the iterations before it and again we are talking about realized results on a racetrack not subjective street riding.
I also agree with you...If on the Gen4 I can use less effort to be faster than that what I would do. I'm racing 28 guys, 70% has 2011-16 ZX10R's, the others are riding BMW's and Ducatis.
I also agree with evallarta1. I don't think I'm using all the Gen3 can do, probably far from it, and I'm also pretty sure I don't ride at a level I could feel the chassis flex. But like he said, so does %95 of the riders out there... So basically what I'm saying is that if nobody uses %100 of any 5 years old bikes, shouldn't they buy one?
I think if I can be faster on a Gen4, I could use the extra effort to be faster on it instead of working so hard just to get where the Gen4 will take me with half the work...
Rotem_46 is offline  
post #20 of 39 Old 04-06-2016, 10:21 AM
Street Rider
 
SNSSTR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: West TN
Posts: 71
Posting Frequency
 
Garage
Granted, I'm not a racer, but if you have the funds to do it, I would just go ahead and get the Gen 4. You're only going to be second guessing your skills and your Gen 3 while you're out on the track now, wondering in the back of your mind 'If I had only switched to a Gen 4 would I be faster'. So get the Gen 4, learn the bike, and enjoy your track time! Cheers
Rotem_46 likes this.
SNSSTR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Kawasaki ZX-10R.net forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome