Might sell my zx10r - Page 4 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #31 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ukzx10r View Post
Its not a bitsa bike.

Its a gen4 with a rear end spec almost identical to gen5.

For me its always handled bad at the rear even when standard.

So i just need to work out what spring rate i need for my weight.

If anyone wants to add their weight and spring rate to give me an idea that would be very helpful

I'm running 105nm on Gen5 at 80kg without gear.. Guys similar to my weight were running upto 120nm on a Gen4. Gen4 vs Gen5 aftermarket shocks have different valving also. What's the swingarm pivot offset on your bike? Rear grip is the biggest difference i'm finding after switching from s1000rr to zx10. Haven't had enough track time to sort it out yet but it spins a lot more than my BMW on same spec tires/track/temp/pressure and similar laptimes.


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post #32 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Newf View Post
I'm running 105nm on Gen5 at 80kg without gear.. Guys similar to my weight were running upto 120nm on a Gen4. Gen4 vs Gen5 aftermarket shocks have different valving also. What's the swingarm pivot offset on your bike? Rear grip is the biggest difference i'm finding after switching from s1000rr to zx10. Haven't had enough track time to sort it out yet but it spins a lot more than my BMW on same spec tires/track/temp/pressure and similar laptimes.


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Im so glad im not the only one who notices the spinning issue.
The s1000 i rode had jad sc3 on so not identical to mine but on the same day less than an hour appart i noticed a massive difference with rear end grip.
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post #33 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 09:04 AM
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I ran 115 with stock link and now 105 with gen5 link (110 is too stiff), 83kg.

You ditch your custom link that puts rear low and creates squat problem (low swingarm angle).
Flat swingarm angle is bigger problem that wrong damping or spring. To get that right measure swingarm axle and rear axle height from ground. The diffence must be at least 118mm (121mm creates angle of 12 degrees).
Use gen5 link and you should ride more or less ok with existing shock as is.

Gen5 stock has higher seat seat height, check that out, maybe you are sitting too high.

I tried once extra chain link like you have and that made steering less responsive. I would say use stock chain unless 44T rear sprocket.
Shorter wheelbase is better for tight tracks. To keep stock chain I went 15T at front.

Watched your riding video, while your base speed is good, there is room to shave many seconds easily.
I think if you go to S1000RR you can turn few seconds faster and hit same limits, good take some racing instructor training and you could improve 10 seconds.
I noticed that you often go through corner with throttle closed.
It may be a bad habit or you feel unconfortable cracking throttle open much earlier (mid corner), not well anchored in bike, supporig weight on bars mid corners etc.

Fast riders open a crack quickly after braking to create stability. There are many levels of throttle: just to tension the chain (no engine brake, bike still decelerates), maintaining speed, little acceleration to transfer weight away from front and prepare for pickup rollon.
In fast corners it takes big amount of roll just to keep the bike from slowing down.
Your flick rate and slow pickup suggests that you are not consciously giving proper steering input.
Many fast hobby riders are not steering before brake is released, try to start pushing inner bar at second half of brake zone, bike does not lean much while brake applied, but as you release brake it drops quick without drama.
At corner exit a beginner is coasting forever to the outer curb and starting to accelerate suddenly there or picking up bike a little and accelerating hard leaving lean angle the same (ca. 35deg).
What racers are doing is different: the line after apex is such that it is possible to finish turn in the middle of road, but right after apex I pull hard inner bar to pick up quickly and roll throttle smooth and hard.
This causes smooth shock action too, no sudden weight transfer or gripp drama.
Try this: stay in full lean angle one second longer than usual, then steer hard to drive directly to outer curb, next time roll throttle during pickup and try to hear/record motor rev. increase what should be nice linear revving.
This way you make use of 1000cc power compared to 250cc.
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Gen4 race: high spec.
Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa 2013: stock.
Kawasaki KX450F 2016: love it.
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post #34 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
I ran 115 with stock link and now 105 with gen5 link (110 is too stiff), 83kg.

You ditch your custom link that puts rear low and creates squat problem (low swingarm angle).
Flat swingarm angle is bigger problem that wrong damping or spring. To get that right measure swingarm axle and rear axle height from ground. The diffence must be at least 118mm (121mm creates angle of 12 degrees).
Use gen5 link and you should ride more or less ok with existing shock as is.

Gen5 stock has higher seat seat height, check that out, maybe you are sitting too high.

I tried once extra chain link like you have and that made steering less responsive. I would say use stock chain unless 44T rear sprocket.
Shorter wheelbase is better for tight tracks. To keep stock chain I went 15T at front.

Watched your riding video, while your base speed is good, there is room to shave many seconds easily.
I think if you go to S1000RR you can turn few seconds faster and hit same limits, good take some racing instructor training and you could improve 10 seconds.
I noticed that you often go through corner with throttle closed.
It may be a bad habit or you feel unconfortable cracking throttle open much earlier (mid corner), not well anchored in bike, supporig weight on bars mid corners etc.

Fast riders open a crack quickly after braking to create stability. There are many levels of throttle: just to tension the chain (no engine brake, bike still decelerates), maintaining speed, little acceleration to transfer weight away from front and prepare for pickup rollon.
In fast corners it takes big amount of roll just to keep the bike from slowing down.
Your flick rate and slow pickup suggests that you are not consciously giving proper steering input.
Many fast hobby riders are not steering before brake is released, try to start pushing inner bar at second half of brake zone, bike does not lean much while brake applied, but as you release brake it drops quick without drama.
At corner exit a beginner is coasting forever to the outer curb and starting to accelerate suddenly there or picking up bike a little and accelerating hard leaving lean angle the same (ca. 35deg).
What racers are doing is different: the line after apex is such that it is possible to finish turn in the middle of road, but right after apex I pull hard inner bar to pick up quickly and roll throttle smooth and hard.
This causes smooth shock action too, no sudden weight transfer or gripp drama.
Try this: stay in full lean angle one second longer than usual, then steer hard to drive directly to outer curb, next time roll throttle during pickup and try to hear/record motor rev. increase what should be nice linear revving.
This way you make use of 1000cc power compared to 250cc.
Just to add im 105kg kitted.
Ive had 4 different shocks. 3 different types of links.
3 different types of tyres.
Ive run with tc on and off.
And ive run different gearing and seat height and wheelbase.
Always the same result give or take a fraction.
Front has perfect wear and perfect feel entering corners as hard as i do and im not bragging but my corner enrty speed is pretty awsome. I barely ever get overtaken on corner entry.
But my exit speed is only good for few laps.
Mid corner i cannot coutch the throttle as it would ping me off. It always lets go when i try.
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post #35 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ukzx10r View Post
Ive had 4 different shocks. 3 different types of links.
Yea, but you never used the one that actually works... The link I was selling altered not only the rising rate of the swingarm, but the crazy high start rate as well. When paired with the custom valving in the Ohlins shock and set to the ride height instructions we specified it provided instant compliance and grip for every single rider or racer that used it like we told them to.

You've chased your tail for so long on trying to find a cheaper alternative to band-aid what is wrong with your ZX-10 that you are willing to now throw another $15,000 at the problem just to get a new bike. None of it makes much sense from a monetary perspective or even the basic idea of wanting to ride faster with less drama.
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post #36 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 10:00 AM
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Mid corner i cannot coutch the throttle as it would ping me off. It always lets go when i try.
Hmm... this is a serious issue limiting you and taking all the fun away!
It must feel horrible to take a fast corner with throttle closed...while that bike has serious engine braking.
Do you have stock (not flashed) ECU with fuel cut active?
In that case the jerk at opening the throttle can be annoying, buy it is hard to belive that it "lets go" like you said.
Please explain more what exactly happens to bike and what you feel as you open throttle little bit mid corner.

Gen4 race: high spec.
Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa 2013: stock.
Kawasaki KX450F 2016: love it.
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post #37 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 10:00 AM
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post #38 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 10:21 AM
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ukzx10r have you actually explained all these problems to a dedicated and professional suspension shop?

Did you show them your rear tyre pics? (those ones that had the terrible wear pattern).

What did they say / try to sell you?
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post #39 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
Hmm... this is a serious issue limiting you and taking all the fun away!
It must feel horrible to take a fast corner with throttle closed...while that bike has serious engine braking.
Do you have stock (not flashed) ECU with fuel cut active?
In that case the jerk at opening the throttle can be annoying, buy it is hard to belive that it "lets go" like you said.
Please explain more what exactly happens to bike and what you feel as you open throttle little bit mid corner.
Not throttle closed but not accelerating as it lets go and leaves massive black lines everywhere.
At 3.50 in my vid it lets go as im trying to gently ease on the power.
Also incase you aint seen it at 6.20 i nearly highsided again feeding in the power.
The rear footage ove had of all my trackdays shows some nice black lines being layed.
I can see them on the next lap. Looks good but feels scary lol

Last edited by ukzx10r; 05-31-2017 at 12:40 PM.
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post #40 of 124 Old 05-31-2017, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10Arghh View Post
ukzx10r have you actually explained all these problems to a dedicated and professional suspension shop?

Did you show them your rear tyre pics? (those ones that had the terrible wear pattern).

What did they say / try to sell you?
Ive spoken to specialists at track days who have said the gen4 shock is junk.
Also one gave me advice of letting off the damping which destroyed the tyre and made my bike feel worse.
Everyone advises a decent rear shock which is obvious but i havnt had any spare cash to buy one as they are alot of money.
Im thinking taking the plunge soon though as i cant keep riding hard on a bike that wants to ping me off alot.
My luck will run out one day
Currently trying to find someone who can help.
Was hoping i could get enough onfo off the net to get it close on my own for time being
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