Gen 5: 2016 -> Gen5 rear suspention link info needed - Page 7 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #61 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 04:32 AM
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So here's what I could use some advise on. I have a Gen4 with Ohlins mechatronic shock setup for 180-200lb rider. I want to change links and dog bone, either Dan Kyle, MSS Colchester, Gen5, they all seem very similar in geometry targeting a common result. What adjustments are recommended to made to the spring and valving in my shock to suit the adjusted rising rate? Please keep in mind that I do not want a rear end that is mucho stiff as I primarily ride road with occasional track day.
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post #62 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
I think you numbers are not correct.
Looks like you are looking only at link plate "rotational leverage component". There is other motion components in play with zx10R rear suspention, like what happens if you weld link plate to swingarm... suspention still works..."swingarm rotational component". Using Kyle, MSS, or Gen5 link on Gen4 makes link system ca. 10...13% stiffer (not 28%).
Im saying the link plates only are geared 28% more than the standard gen4.
Not overall gearing.
As the link plates i make are using standard gen4 dogbone and keep standard ride height when rýnning the showa shock then the 28% ratio is too much.
Standard gen4 ratio was too soft.
I made a few different ratios and the 19% worked the best.
It allows the damping range to be set at standard settings without being too hard or soft.
The showa shock offers a large range of damping.
I will make a video to show you the amount. You wont believe it.
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post #63 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 05:24 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOP Leader View Post
So here's what I could use some advise on. I have a Gen4 with Ohlins mechatronic shock setup for 180-200lb rider. I want to change links and dog bone, either Dan Kyle, MSS Colchester, Gen5, they all seem very similar in geometry targeting a common result. What adjustments are recommended to made to the spring and valving in my shock to suit the adjusted rising rate? Please keep in mind that I do not want a rear end that is mucho stiff as I primarily ride road with occasional track day.
I'm not suspention specialist, take my opinion with two grains of salt.

a) Are you generally happy with your current shock setup?
b) If you think that improventsts are worth to try, then there is easy way and hard way.
c) Easy way is to sell mecha shock, buy TTX with clickers and go to suspention pro. They will probably go one or two steps down with spring and install lighter valving suiting aftermarket link.
d) Hard way is testing valving changes with mecha shock. Trial-error and shock opened for valving changes many times...expensive.
e) Mecha is a system without feedback motion sensor, it makes adjustments and hopes outcome is in "ballpark".
f) Installing aftermarket link moves your system out of that "ballpark".
g) If I would start messing arround with this (mecha+after link), then I would put in same valving as thay do with normal TTX in case of link change.
And if now (before change) the shock is a bit stiff then go down two steps with spring. If soft now, then one step down.
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post #64 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 05:48 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukzx10r View Post
Im saying the link plates only are geared 28% more than the standard gen4.
Not overall gearing.
As the link plates i make are using standard gen4 dogbone and keep standard ride height when rýnning the showa shock then the 28% ratio is too much.
Standard gen4 ratio was too soft.
I made a few different ratios and the 19% worked the best.
It allows the damping range to be set at standard settings without being too hard or soft.
The showa shock offers a large range of damping.
I will make a video to show you the amount. You wont believe it.
You are using short gen4 dogbone. Correct?
I agree with you that in this case your "28%" link would be much stiffer than gen5 stock bike.

But I think you are going "unfavorable direction" by using gen4 bone with custom plates.
Sorry for critisism, but I'm just trying to help and saying what makes sense to me.
With short gen4 dogbone the angle between bogbone line and following two bolt line gets progressevly flat as suspention compresses. This causes your setup being more progressive system that gen4 stock. Average link ratio trough stroke is better, but damn progressive what is not good for fast superbike solo riding. Twosome maybe
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post #65 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
You are using short gen4 dogbone. Correct?
I agree with you that in this case your "28%" link would be much stiffer than gen5 stock bike.

But I think you are going "unfavorable direction" by using gen4 bone with custom plates.
Sorry for critisism, but I'm just trying to help and saying what makes sense to me.
With short gen4 dogbone the angle between bogbone line and following two bolt line gets progressevly flat as suspention compresses. This causes your setup being more progressive system that gen4 stock. Average link ratio trough stroke is better, but damn progressive what is not good for fast superbike solo riding. Twosome maybe
I dont mind critisism. But all i know is its ok saying what we believe will or will not work from looking at pics and specs but ive actually tried and tested various plates.
The links ive made run virtually flat much like the standard gen4.
The gen5 dogbone is a tad longer so presumably starts above and flattens out.
At the end of the day once a few people have fitted my links we can get a general feedback to see how much better they are.
I love them and im a experienced rider.
See the pics below show the link runs nearly flat sitting still.
.
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post #66 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
I'm not suspention specialist, take my opinion with two grains of salt.

a) Are you generally happy with your current shock setup?
b) If you think that improventsts are worth to try, then there is easy way and hard way.
c) Easy way is to sell mecha shock, buy TTX with clickers and go to suspention pro. They will probably go one or two steps down with spring and install lighter valving suiting aftermarket link.
d) Hard way is testing valving changes with mecha shock. Trial-error and shock opened for valving changes many times...expensive.
e) Mecha is a system without feedback motion sensor, it makes adjustments and hopes outcome is in "ballpark".
f) Installing aftermarket link moves your system out of that "ballpark".
g) If I would start messing arround with this (mecha+after link), then I would put in same valving as thay do with normal TTX in case of link change.
And if now (before change) the shock is a bit stiff then go down two steps with spring. If soft now, then one step down.
I think your over complicating things.
Generally the best way is to buy all the best kit and pay someone else to do all the work and setup for you.
But it comes at a price.
There is a way to improve things if you cannot afford to buy all the best kit.
But this can involve time and agro.
What i have done is put in the time and agro and offered a cheaper altetnative to try help people out.
Dont think im doing this for the cash because there aint much in it at all.
Im trying to do people a favour.
I did it with my r1 big bang conversion on the gen1 zx10r.
It worked amazingly well.
My setup cost me £200 all in and im over the moon.
I was quoted 350 just for a resprung revalved standard shock that wasnt guarenteed to be that good.
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post #67 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ukzx10r View Post
I dont mind critisism. But all i know is its ok saying what we believe will or will not work from looking at pics and specs but ive actually tried and tested various plates.
The links ive made run virtually flat much like the standard gen4.
The gen5 dogbone is a tad longer so presumably starts above and flattens out.
At the end of the day once a few people have fitted my links we can get a general feedback to see how much better they are.
I love them and im a experienced rider.
See the pics below show the link runs nearly flat sitting still.
Great work ukzx10r.
I belive that your link makes significant improvement. It makes gen5 shock compilant for gen4, good for hard street riding anytime. It should make better ride even with gen4 stock shock too, because with your link gen4 shock is not that much undervalved and undersprung anymore.
When it comes to track racing, then I must go (did go) with Gen5 dogbone to get needed linearity.
I attached a picture of my bike too, where angle in question is visible. With g5 bone angle changes from ca. 85 to 90 to 95 degrees versus 95..100..105degrees with g4 bone.
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post #68 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 09:16 AM
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Nice pic.
I wouldnt say that my setup is alot different to yours.
The dogbone is mainly to controll the ride height.
You do get a slight linier effect from having it in different positions but if you work it out its not much at all.
By they way if you wanted to play with dogbone lengths have you seen these bargain adjustable dogbones for the zx10r?
Look at this on eBay Rear Adjustable Lowering Suspension Drop Links Kit For KAWASAKI ZX-10R 2011-2015 | eBay
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post #69 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos76 View Post
This makes difference of some 2.7% in stiffness assuming that distance from swingarm axle to plate mounting hole stayes same (I dont know if a fact). This small difference could be felt by some riders. Fortunatley we know that Gen5 link hardware is very similar to MSS, so no big worries.
Regardless of the exact difference, you are right, this can definitely be felt. Front end of the bike has also been changed.

I like experimentation, good that some guys are willing to see what works and what doesn't.

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post #70 of 112 Old 06-13-2016, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ukzx10r View Post
I think your over complicating things.
Generally the best way is to buy all the best kit and pay someone else to do all the work and setup for you.
I think LDH would support me in this, that is a myth calculated to make a boatload of dough for someone.

Each rider's ability is different thus simply throwing a lot of money at a bike using a few standard measurements from a chart is not going to work well.

Riding fast is all about confidence, and that can only be gotten by rider feedback. The companies that make equipment shoot in the dark until they hit the goal, based on the results. So if you spend, say $10,000 on upgrading your bike, and you are already lapping your favorite track at such and such a time, you are not going to go out with all that new stuff and start lapping 5 seconds faster. Most likely you will lap a lot slower as you will now need to completely sort all the new stuff.

This stuff is nowhere near as scientific as it seems. Even at the top levels there is no computer program to tell the teams exactly what to do to get a faster lap time. They can be guided by data but no more. The rest is in the riderís hands.

So the point being one is generally better off working with a good package and riding it to a comfort zone limitation, then making small adjustments, one at a time, and see what effect those have. Keep a notebook. Getting the tire pressure alone right can improve lap times. Sometimes the suspension needs to be looser and more compliant rather than stiffer. A lot of this stuff is not intuitive.

Lots of folks will be very happy to part you from your money but donít expect to suddenly see your performance increase in proportion to the amount of dough you poured into someone elseís bank account. So your way is actually best.

Sturm und Drang
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