Gen 4: 2011-2015 abs removal - Page 2 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #11 of 104 Old 11-19-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 880turbo View Post
Turbo; If you swapped the harness with a non ABS one, wouldn't you also need a non ABS computer? I was also looking at the pinout for the ABS connector, and 2 of the pins said power for the wheel speed sensors. Does that mean if you unplugged the ABS, that the traction control would not work also? We need to figure this out. Mike.
It's a weird one as with the race ECU it's all different, I've yet to scour through the road going version's schematic. But if it comes down to needing a non ABS ECU and dash then so be it. Ugh, great fun that will be.


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Originally Posted by ducatibrandon View Post
Got a stupid question but why would you want to remove the ABS?
No such thing as a stupid question. ABS (for better or worse) is here to stay and will be released on an ever increasing range of models by all manufactures.

The biggest issue, and especially with Kawasaki which already has woeful brakes to start off with is that firstly the standard master cylinder is not up to the job of really getting the most out of the equally woeful Tokico 2 piece calipers.

But what they have done by putting ABS on the bike is added about 2-3ft of tubing into an already under performing braking package. So before you even need to apply the brakes you're disadvantaged. So now when you squeeze the lever you are trying to pressure up a much larger hydraulic system. Without ABS even being activated you are losing efficiency in the system.

What makes it worse is that they use rubber lines from the master cylinder to a manifold block before it goes to metal tube to the ABS servo. Then back out vie metal tubes, before it goes back to a rubber line and to the calipers, form memory it also has 2 rubber sections on it's way to the servo and back out. The down side with rubber lines is that rather than transferring all the fluid force through them is that they allow them selves to expand under pressure, reducing how much force reaches the caliper and this is true even from brand new lines. This gets progressively worse the older the lines get as they degrade.

When it comes time to flush the system of fluid and replace with new... you have a far greater amount of fluid to flush through and care must be taken to ensure that it is done correctly as the greater the length of tubing and column of fluid the greater the chance that it will have some form of contaminant in it that you may not be aware of.

It all makes for a very inefficient system. Replacing the rubber sections with stainless will see an improvement, but the kits available to do only replace the rubber lines from the caliper to the first manifold so still leave rubber from the master cylinder to the first manifold and also two rubber sections in the run from/to the ABS module.

As for the function of ABS. If you have triggered the ABS... if the servo is spinning and the lever is pulsing and the slip/skid of the wheel is being controlled by the bike, it does not mean you are braking at the limit of the bikes ability and it most certainly does not mean you are braking and slowing down as quickly as the bike is capable of.

It means that you have messed up your braking, your technique for braking is incorrect/you've panicked/not taken into account road conditions.

The best braking performance most can ever hope to achieve is right on that knife edge of where the tyre is about to skid. The truly skillful brakers can have the front wheel rotating slower than the road speed below it, creating what I could best describe a pseudo skid, much like a compression lock up but with the front wheel using your bakes (but that's a whole different subject). This is threshold braking. A key point to threshold braking is getting the weight forward, the forks loaded and the tire loaded and deformed to get a greater contact patch on the road, more contact patch more grip... more grip the more you can get on the brakes.

Now, lets assume you've made a mess of your braking. You're riding along, you haven't been paying attention and there's a car in front of you. You've gone and given that lever a good old heave ho. Your front wheel has a tiny contact patch and the forks are at a neutral position.

In the old days a panic grab of the brakes would see you overwhelm that tiny front wheel contact patch, lock the front, tuck it and end up under the car. With ABS, ok, great it locks briefly, but regains grip, then locks, grips, lock grips... etc. Small instances of front wheel lock, while unnerving won't see you washing the front like previously.

Now here's the thing. For ABS to stop that wheel it needs to release the pressure off the caliper, to do so it needs to drop that pressure far more than what the threshold point would have been (anyone who has locked a front wheel with conventional brakes will know how much they need to release the lever to get it back), at this point the pilot is shitting bricks and is squeezing that lever as hard as he/she can. So now what's going on at the front of the bike? You started with a small tire contact patch, unloaded forks, unloaded tire. You've over whelmed it, locked it. ABS releases the brakes, contact tire patch stays small, forks and tire remain unloaded, you squeeze harder... immediately overwhelming the tire again... repeat. You now are making those little chirps with the front wheel that is so typical when ABS is being activated, your stopping distance is significantly greater. The whole time, not once do you get anywhere near the full capabilities of your bikes stopping power, you are now heading to your doom bolt upright towards a solid object.

You have three options with braking, lock the front and slide down the road or as many like to claim "I laid it down to avoid an accident", rely on ABS and plow into your hazard anyway, or learn to brake properly and not have an accident in the first place. I've seen riders make a mess of their braking, locking a front, and have the presence of mind to release then apply the brakes correctly.

Now going back to your original question, I remove the ABS for the all the reasons above, in addition to being able to put in braided brake lines, reduce the amount of pipe work, fluid, connections and room for faults. At the same time I also take the opportunity to beef up the master cylinder.

ABS on bikes is still in its infancy on bikes, the benefits of it on cars is huge, you can steer around your obstacles while panic braking (though most don't and still hit the hazard).

Last edited by TurboR1; 11-19-2013 at 09:08 PM.
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post #12 of 104 Old 11-19-2013, 09:47 PM
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^Awesome post turbo r1. Now a days company's try to replace once "required" skills for electronic interference which on "paper" might sound good, and for squids sound "great". But in reality just takes away from the overall skill set someone who rides a super sport or any bike for that matter should already have or learn by mistake. Now a days people think they can just pin it out of a corner and let the TC take over is "great" ok, what happen to feeling you're tires and skill. Or grab a fist full of lever coming in stupid hot expecting abs to take over.

I was at my local kawi stealership about a month ago just picking one of the salesman brains on the bikes features just seeing what he had to say on certain subjects. Oh boy, the best thing they can say now is "it comes stock with TC and ABS" my first question after that was is it possible to disable it without flashing the bike...His answer to me was "why would you want to do that, abs is great" In my head I just said oh boy, one of those huh..lol. I explained I've spend years getting a feel for my rubber on the road and having the rear tire dribble of the pavement at a 100mph+ due to my "feel" for the brakes was my cup of tea. After some studdering he said people who track usualy disable it. Hhmmmm I WONDER WHY! lol, maybe they like to actually be in control of their beast of a bike and not grab the lever like a neanderthal hopping for the "electronics" to take reign.

The best was how he threw out there "but what if a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, and you lock the front up, abs wont let you do that" In my head again "oh boy" my reply to him: Dude I grab my breaks till I stop or steer around the car. I'd rather endo 2 feet in the air for 50 feet let it down and swerve like a mad man than have some bs system take over "trying" to "help" me. Let me know when you guys get some used bikes in here's my card lol.

Maybe for someone who's never ridden bicycles or is extremely unskilled when it comes to things on two wheels could benefit from abs. That being said they really shouldn't be riding anyhow. All I'm saying is I'd like to be able to look at new bikes without all this electronic BS interfering with all its so called "benefits", more systems, more variables, higher chance of failure. I wish they would keep it stupid simple. My rant over

Last edited by tyler_sti; 11-19-2013 at 10:10 PM.
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post #13 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 08:24 AM
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Ok I buy into that. All my track bikes and road going bikes I've always change the lines and pads. I have a feeling I will be ordering up Brembo M/C and some new lines. I'll see what happens after that with the calipers. Brought home the bike last night and still have not rode it. We have track day on the 8th so I have a couple days to order up some things.


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post #14 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 09:09 AM
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TurboR1; That was a great write up. I have already removed the complete ABS system from my bike except for the control unit. What an amazing mess of crap! I really want to remove the control unit to save the weight, and also free up space. My father is an electrical engineer, and is a real genius with wiring. We need to try to figure this out for all the people who want to remove the ABS. My bike is a street bike, not a race bike, so I would not use the race harness. Let me know if you have any ideas, and thanks again for the great posts. Mike.
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post #15 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 09:26 AM
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theres gotta be a slight difference in wiring to let the main ecu to go into limp mode when the abs isn't detected hopefully both non abs and abs engine ECU are the same!
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post #16 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 09:38 AM
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I checked and the part #'s for the ECU's and they are the same for the ABS version, and non ABS version which is what I expected. We just need to figure out how to make it so that the ECU thinks the ABS motor is still connected. Lets figure it out. Mike.
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post #17 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 09:57 AM
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For what it's worth.....I have braided lines and EBC racing pads on my 2011 Gen 4 with ABS....the ABS is only anti skid....if you hit water or sand on the pavement....otherwise, it isn't needed....I remove the fuses on the race track and the brakes work fine...no ABS needed there...for street riding, the brakes with ABS work just fine for me...

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post #18 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 11:20 AM
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Olderguy; When you remove the fuses, are you removing all of the ABS fuses, or just the one for the motor? Thanks. Mike.
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post #19 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 880turbo View Post
Olderguy; When you remove the fuses, are you removing all of the ABS fuses, or just the one for the motor? Thanks. Mike.
I remove the two under the seat in the fuse holder...

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post #20 of 104 Old 11-20-2013, 12:06 PM
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Olderguy; When you remove the fuses, does the traction control still work just like normal? The only difference is the ABS does not work? Thanks. Mike.
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