17zx10 Kit parts Question - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #1 of 6 Old 10-26-2017, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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17zx10 Kit parts Question

Can someone clarify this for me, Cant seem to understand it.


*BACK TORQUE LIMITER CLUTCH PARTS Adjusts clutch setting · Requires 6 Retainers (39108-0005)

Ninja® ZX™-10R (16-17), Ninja® ZX™-10RR
Clutch Plate, + 40%.................................13089-0011
Clutch Plate, + 60%.................................13089-0012
Retainer (6 req) .......................................39108-0005

What are you Increasing by 40 and 60%..? And what is a clutch Retainer ?
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post #2 of 6 Old 10-26-2017, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Tsmathers33 View Post
Can someone clarify this for me, Cant seem to understand it.


*BACK TORQUE LIMITER CLUTCH PARTS Adjusts clutch setting · Requires 6 Retainers (39108-0005)

Ninja® ZX™-10R (16-17), Ninja® ZX™-10RR
Clutch Plate, + 40%.................................13089-0011
Clutch Plate, + 60%.................................13089-0012
Retainer (6 req) .......................................39108-0005

What are you Increasing by 40 and 60%..? And what is a clutch Retainer ?

A back-torque limiter is a clutch that deliberately slips in a smooth and controlled manner as the rear wheel tries to turn over the engine. Most clutches are simple ramp style mechanisms, a one-way ramp and ball mechanism under the center of the clutch pushes the center of the multi-plate clutch up as the rear wheel tries to drive the engine through the transmission. As a result, the clutch disengages as the ‘rising center’ pushes the pressure plate of the top of the plate stack, disengaging the motor.As soon as the clutch disengages, of course, there is no source of power to drive the clutch center up the ramp, and the center starts to fall, allowing the clutch to re-engage and the process to start again. In practice, depending on the angle of the ramps and the spring pressures are chosen the clutch finds an equilibrium that allows only partial engine braking to be transferred through.So why do motorcycles need this mechanism when the engine braking could be a valuable additional brake? It’s all about the way the chassis of a bike is allowed to pitch around to maximise grip in certain circumstances. Let's just consider a bike coming out of one corner and diving into another.. what happens when and why?The bike is leaned right over, the rider applies throttle and the resulting centrifugal force brings the bike upright. As power continues to increase it is better to have the largest possible contact patch on the rear tire. The bike rolls back on its suspension and loads up the rear tire, compressing the sidewalls and flattening out a larger than normal contact patch. In addition, the rear drive chain is acting to try and extend the rear suspension by the nature of the relationship between the front drive sprocket, the swingarm pivot point, and the rear sprocket. This adds additional pressure on the contact patch and helps move some of the bike weight forward.As the bike enters the next corner the brakes are applied and the front suspension dives, transferring the load to the front tire, flattening that contact patch and allowing more aggressive braking. As the rear tire sees load transferred the front however the same settings that pushed the rear tire into the ground under acceleration are now trying to lift the entire wheel off the ground. The transfer of load to the front, the pitching forward of the entire motorcycle and the desire of the rear wheel to hop as it tries to use whatever grip is left to turn the engine over compression means that any mechanism that can disengage the engine will add to the available grip and will greatly stabilize corner entry feel. One additional benefit is that the ‘slipper clutch’ acts to help reduce engine over-rev as well.One alternative solution is to use the engines throttles to increase the effective takeover level corner by corner to eliminate the engine braking, this has been very successful in recent years amongst race classes using sufficiently sophisticated throttle systems.transmissions current trend of the increasing use of motorcycle engine/gearbox units in small displacement racing cars, begs the question of whether the slipper clutch is relevant here. In a racing car, the potential benefits are more in the way of stopping over-revving and reducing stress on the gearbox, primary gears and crank bearings near the primary gears. Motorcycle constructors typically design gearboxes that are smaller and lighter than their automotive counterparts; this is because the levels of grip are so low and there is no point carrying around a gearbox that is heavier than you can use. Of course, if the bike engine is put into a car chassis, with loads of grip, it can cause problems. The same for over-revving on downshifts. The grip levels afforded by a race car will easily get a motorcycle engine over-revving, without any of the hopping and skipping of the rear wheel that occurs on a bike but which also helps prevent severe engine damage.
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post #3 of 6 Old 10-27-2017, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsmathers33 View Post
What are you Increasing by 40 and 60%..? And what is a clutch Retainer ?
Retainers are profile washers holding springs in place.
Kit retainers have different profile and put little more preload on springs.
I use 1 mm copper washers from hydraulic supply store to do same function.

Plus 40%, 60% plates are same thing as Gen1 stock (is 0%) judder plate only that much stiffer.
Obviosly affects launch feel.
And you need to reduce remaining plates thicknesses to have pack height good.

P.S. More spring preload affects needed back torque to activate slipper. You may need to remove some leaf springs to compensate (I have only one left).

Have no gen5 race manual? See Gen4 race kit manual maybe its much the same regarding clutch.

Gen4 race: high spec.
Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa 2013: stock.
Kawasaki KX450F 2016: love it.
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post #4 of 6 Old 10-27-2017, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks

I dont have a race manual.. did not know they had such a thing.. does that have the same info as a service manual plus more.?.. Do you know if I can get one from my local dealer?

((Im coming off a Yamaha (4yrs) for a 2018zx.. Trying to get things sorted before it gets here))
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post #5 of 6 Old 10-27-2017, 06:55 AM
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Good reading Chiffe!

Let me just write few friendly remarks as my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiffeee View Post
The bike is leaned right over, the rider applies throttle and the resulting centrifugal force brings the bike upright.
I think centrifugal force absolute value does not change much. Yes, delta added speed results certain amount of added centrifugal force if we continue on same radius. In practice the dominant factor for bringing bike up is our countersteering (turning bars) what decreases the radius and naturally drives front wheel inwards. If we would log and look at centrifugal force data, then there is maybe only minor spike in data when "upwards roll" starts. From physics point of view the kinetic energy transfer "to stand up" and overcome gyro forces is initiated from tightening the radius a little, but now centrifugal absolute falls quickly from reduced lean and increased radius.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chiffeee View Post
In addition, the rear drive chain is acting to try and extend the rear suspension by the nature of the relationship between the front drive sprocket,
the swingarm pivot point, and the rear sprocket. This adds additional pressure on the contact patch and helps move some of the bike weight forward.
I understand your first sentance. Here "extending the rear" (antisquat vectors) counteracts more weight on rear tire.
The second sentance is very problematic. Yes pressure is added on rear under acceleration (example all weight is on rear as front starts to lift).
Cannot comment what you mean by "add additional pressure", matter of wording.
End of sentance is incorrect, because it is not possible to move any weight forward (in bike as solid object) by pressures on tires or swingarm staying somewhat extended or compressed!
However I guess do understand why you said that. Bike tends to have less grip or/and wheelie more if swingam compresses much or too quickly (too much squat or little compression).
Again from physics point of view if road would be perfectly flat-even and swingarm statically compressed to bottom then actually forward drive is better because center of gravity is lower (given enough grip present to not spin the tire).
You agree that in real life it is better to have swingarm balanced somewhere between upper and mid stroke of the shock. This results rear wheel to stay in better contact over the waves and bumps resulting more grip. And what promotes wheelies is when swingarm (shock) lower too quickly (or too sudden throttle too) creating upwards angular momentum (less torque needed to lift the front).
That being said, the good suspention is very important, Sykes said in interview that rear shock is hugely important factor at race bike.

Gen4 race: high spec.
Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa 2013: stock.
Kawasaki KX450F 2016: love it.
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post #6 of 6 Old 10-27-2017, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsmathers33 View Post
Thanks

I dont have a race manual.. did not know they had such a thing.. does that have the same info as a service manual plus more.?.. Do you know if I can get one from my local dealer?

((Im coming off a Yamaha (4yrs) for a 2018zx.. Trying to get things sorted before it gets here))
2011 kit manual should be found when you google: 2011 zx-10r racing kit manual pdf kawarb.fi
I have not seen gen5 kit manual jet.

Keeping stock judder, it is possible to add one more friction pair using mostly 2.3mm plates.
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Gen4 race: high spec.
Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa 2013: stock.
Kawasaki KX450F 2016: love it.
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