Hi all, New to the board, and first post here... :D I am currently the proud owner of a modded 98 ZX-9R, but as it's closing in on 6 years, and 2004 being the pukka sportbike year it is, I am looking at a replacement. For me it comes down to either a 2004 R1 or a ZX-10R. I love the underseat pipes and the esthetics of the R1, but the ZX10R is growing on me. The thing is that I have heard the wildest claims from either side wrt bhp and weight. I have heard the 165kg weight for the ZX-10 confirmed by multiple sources @ kawa, but they tell me the power will be 170bhp. I suppose that is at the crank, so that would put the kwak 10 bhp down on the R1. :shock: I'm so full of doubt as to what to get, and I need you all to tell me to stay green (although my ZX-9 is black :lol: )

I also have a 98 zx9r modded which im considering trading. i fell in love with the 10r as soon as i heard it was coming out. the r1 is a very nice bike, it looks like something extremely out of this world, very sharp, but i am partial to kawasaki, but the r1 is growing on me a little, im hoping kawasaki does not dissapoint and the 10 will spank all of the other bikes out there, im waiting for the numbers to come out to make a full decision. i was also thinking of just keeping my 9 and boring it out to a 1000cc. my 9 rocks, i still love it, my friends on gixxer1000's cannot totally burn me on my 9. my bike stays right there with them. boring it out might do the job for alot less than 11k. i cant wait to see the new 10 in person, that might totally erase everything i wrote here, and ill just have to get it.

I hear you :D With me it was the other way round. Really liked the R1 at first, I guess mainly because of the underseat exhausts... But now the ZX10 is growing on me bigtime. As for the power, I think Kawasaki learned a valuable, be it painful lesson in 1998 when they came out with the 9, only to be obliterated a few weeks later by the R1 that blew it away in both HP and weight... Guess they will not make the same mistake twice, and I am counting on around 160 rear wheel ponies at the least. If you see from the Tach that it redlines at 13,000 RPM, there should be massive power there. Anyway, holding on to my cash until I see both the R1 and the ZX10 in the flesh, and all the cards are on the table. As things stand now though, I'm inclined to go with the Kawasaki. There's something special about the big Kawa's and this would be my third: 1994 ZX-9R 1998 ZX-9R + 2000 Ducati Monster S4 2004 ZX-10R ??? :lol:

ZX-10R power is rumoured from sources close to Kawasak 170 hp without ram air, should be 180HP+ with ram air effect. :lol: Sames as 04 R1, weight is rumoured to be less, 170 kg or 374 lb :lol: 04 Yamaha R1 is 172 kg or 378.5 lb.

MC online quoted a kawa engineer as saying the 10 will weigh 365 dry. the r1 13 pounds more.

silly season,,,,, :roll: iddn't it.. :lol:

I only wish the ZX-10R would be pumpin out 170 to 180 horses. Thats at the crank anyway.

You guys put too much emphasis on factory horsepower claims. I wouldn't base a purchase decision on the pre-release bullshit that comes out of all the manufacturers; when was the last time either the claimed weight or horsepower measured by unbiased testers met the hype of the previous Fall? If all I wanted was big horsepower, I'd save about $8k by taking my Gixxer 1000 to Lee's Performance or another good tuner. But who wants to be seen on yesterday's hot bike?

o4 r1 is for people that don't know how or are not smart enough to figure out how to make an undertail exhaust themselves,,,all you here is blah blah about the undertail ,,so what ! If it was done creative i'd be interested but it's two giant cans slung under the seat with 15 pounds of heat shield .I have an underseat system on my bike so i am in favour ,but a couple cans under the seat is about as cool as flames and color changing paint .When manufactures start hiding the pipes like a buel(underneath ) or tuck it inside bodywork i'd be impressed .Who cares what it says on the side of the pipe ,let the damn thing breath and put the can sticker on the fairing somewhere if you need to advertise .It's not a progression in undertail pipes ,it's average and played out .Even worse is the honda's . you want cool undertail look at the MV agusta ,mondial piega ,motoguzzi ,etc . The swingarm is the only cool thing about the bike ,, the ram air looks tacky . I'll stick with the zx10r ,stick an underseat yourself and you have the best of both . If an underseat is the selling point of all these new bikes ,if it matters so much hacksaw off the side pipe and sling it under the bike with bungee cords

If you don't consider style, which type of system works the best? It seems like the undertail exhaust makes for a much longer system. I don't know if that is good or bad. Obviously, an undertail exhaust will probably weigh more. A plus for undertail exhaust might be aerodynamics. The Kawasaki windtunnel photos for the ZX-RR seem to show a lot of turbulance around the can. But I get the impression that most MC manufacturers act like they have power to burn when it comes to aerodynamics, anyway. Which system makes the best and most HP over the widest range. I will take substance over style, given a choice.

I will take substance over style, given a choice. i'll take,,, not roastin my nuts :roll: on july days,,, in florida.... :wink:

How much heat actually comes through the seat from the can, to the can.. :shock: ? I think the under seat systems look clean, but I'm with Z, in Florida we don't need any more heat up the "pipe" than necessary!

Unless Yamaha knows a lot more about insulation than Ducati, the heat will be enough to toast your buns, especially in urban traffic on a warm day. It was actually one of the main reasons I dumped my 916 with under 2k miles on it.

Unless Yamaha knows a lot more about insulation than Ducati, the heat will be enough to toast your buns, especially in urban traffic on a warm day. It was actually one of the main reasons I dumped my 916 with under 2k miles on it. simple fact a nature ,,,,,,,,,,,,, :wink: ''heat rises'' :lol: it's gotta be hotter, :oops: den a normal system.. :idea:

o4 r1 is for people that don't know how or are not smart enough to figure out how to make an undertail exhaust themselves,,,all you here is blah blah about the undertail ,,so what ! If it was done creative i'd be interested but it's two giant cans slung under the seat with 15 pounds of heat shield .I have an underseat system on my bike so i am in favour ,but a couple cans under the seat is about as cool as flames and color changing paint .When manufactures start hiding the pipes like a buel(underneath ) or tuck it inside bodywork i'd be impressed .Who cares what it says on the side of the pipe ,let the damn thing breath and put the can sticker on the fairing somewhere if you need to advertise .It's not a progression in undertail pipes ,it's average and played out .Even worse is the honda's . you want cool undertail look at the MV agusta ,mondial piega ,motoguzzi ,etc . The swingarm is the only cool thing about the bike ,, the ram air looks tacky . I'll stick with the zx10r ,stick an underseat yourself and you have the best of both . If an underseat is the selling point of all these new bikes ,if it matters so much hacksaw off the side pipe and sling it under the bike with bungee cords True. But just a bit of information, about heat conduction on the new R1 vs. Duke. The duke is a standard aluminum /stainless alloy exhaust system. This doesn’t expel heat well. The pipe itself holds heat very well causing a roasted ass on a duke. Besides the fact that the new exhaust can is titanium on the R1 (which it’s a fact that titanium disperses heat faster than any form of alloy), it has cermatic plating over the top of the can down to the entry base where the seat where it meets the pipe. Cermatic plating covering does much does much the same as carbon fiber over an exhaust can; it eliminates high temperatures, and almost completely dispels heat. This was a concern for people interested in buying the new CBR 600RR. People had similar fears, but using a very similar heat cermatic plating shield much like the new R1, the heat is hardly noticeable even though the pipe on the Honda is mainly stainless steel. And also in note of people making there under tail exhaust systems. Well, it is slightly more to it than bending a tube out the back of the bike. As for every bend in an exhaust fold it slightly loses horsepower on the top end of a motorcycle. It takes a machine which is known as a exhaust carbon tuner in order to design the piping that best complements the bike in terms of performance. And next time you’re out price shopping, find out how much it costs to purchase enough titanium to make a complete exhaust system. Then price how much it will coast to test a tube through a carbon tuner. You will find that it cost nearly as much to make your own (Properly) as it does to buy one. Which is over 1k. Also proper placement of the butterfly valvue within the exhaust system with the proper seals, etc, etc, etc.

MC online quoted a kawa engineer as saying the 10 will weigh 365 dry. the r1 13 pounds more. You have a link? Cause I haven't seen anything on this.

I have had the pleasure of spending many miles riding a Ducati 998S Ben Bostrom replica in Texas. This bike has the large Carbon Termignoni cans. The bike is somewhat hot to ride below 60 mph, but I think most of the heat is coming off of the radiator / engine, not the exhaust. On the other hand, my local Honda dealer says they often get complaints about the CBR600RR exhaust toasting the riders buns. I have never ridden one (darn) so I can't say under what conditions, it becomes a problem..

Thanks for a truly informative post. This just means that the new R1 is still a possibility for me. Fortunately, my local dealer carries both Yamaha and Kawasaki, and will give the option of taking either in the Spring.

Marco, Forget about the R1 man..lol 8)

MC online quoted a kawa engineer as saying the 10 will weigh 365 dry. the r1 13 pounds more. You have a link? Cause I haven't seen anything on this. Wish I did, it's just one of the things I stored to memory. :oops: If it's true the 10 will weigh the same as a 2000-2003 gsx-r750.

MC online quoted a kawa engineer as saying the 10 will weigh 365 dry. the r1 13 pounds more. You have a link? Cause I haven't seen anything on this. Wish I did, it's just one of the things I stored to memory. :oops: If it's true the 10 will weigh the same as a 2000-2003 gsx-r750. This is worthless without evidence. Sorry man, but there are no spec's out there yet. Kawasaki hasn't realsed them, and until they do no one, not even MCN will know for sure. I spent about a half hour going through MCN website looking for any information close to your post and couldn't find anything. Although they did say best power to weight ratio a million times, but thats only a claim, and not a proven fact yet. We shall see, I can't wait to see the magizines doing some comparos.

i would buy a gixxer 1k before i would even consider a yamaslop r1. ________ Yamaha xv920r history (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_XV920R)

For those wanting a diff exhaust for the 10, i am working on an under bike/cowl exhaust system that will be completely under the bike. More like KTM's '05 superbike's system than a Buel. I will use Yosh TI headers and a short 4into1 collector, short Yosh carbon tri-oval can, (exit cap up in air as of yet). If i lose to much low end, i will incorporate the exhaust valve, but this will make the system very complex, and my goal is to make it completely bolt together from stock parts with easy mods and completely under the lower cowl, exiting to the right, just in front of the rear tire. Once i get the bike, Yosh sends parts, complete and dyno tune, will post pics and dyno's along with part #'s and instructions should anyone wish to duplicate.

Just read in TWO magazine where the chief (?) engineer for the new R1 said that the undertail exhaust is mainly styling but that there is an aerodynamic gain and it improves handlling because of better mass centralization. That last part is pure PR bull sheit. Is that where the center of mass is on the new R1? way up in the air and past the rear axle. Everybody is on the mass centralization key phrase band wagon. The first part of his statement is correct, the second part is a definite maybe, the last part is pure crap. As far as the 180 HP (with ram air)... If you will look at dyno tests for past litre bikes, Yamaha's fudge factor on their HP ratings are traditionally the largest in the industry. Honda and Kawasaki are usually the lowest.

Just read in TWO magazine where the chief (?) engineer for the new R1 said that the undertail exhaust is mainly styling but that there is an aerodynamic gain and it improves handlling because of better mass centralization. That last part is pure PR bull sheit. Is that where the center of mass is on the new R1? way up in the air and past the rear axle. Everybody is on the mass centralization key phrase band wagon. The first part of his statement is correct, the second part is a definite maybe, the last part is pure crap. As far as the 180 HP (with ram air)... If you will look at dyno tests for past litre bikes, Yamaha's fudge factor on their HP ratings are traditionally the largest in the industry. Honda and Kawasaki are usually the lowest. Anytime you have something on one side of the bike that isn’t on the other, there is a weight difference that changes the balance ever so slightly. Honestly most pipes weigh between 8-15 pounds (At least the pipe that came on my 636 weighed 15 pounds) and was hanging off the side of the bike. Buy moving it to the Center of the bike the weight balance went towards the center of the bike. By placing the weight towards the center of the bike you are improving the center of mass. How is that wrong? This isn’t a flame reply, just a respectful debate. But as far as I knew when someone refers to center of mass it means to concentrate all the weight to the center of an object. Improved arrow dynamics a maybe? Have you ever ridden your bike 60 + miles an hour and put your hand out and felt the wind resistance? When you have a bike with a metal tube sticking out, it is obstructing wind. Does it hurt horsepower? No really. Does it slow the bike down? Slightly, depends on how big the exhaust is and how far from the bike it sticks out. But most people but those who race professionally will ever notice that little bit of wind resistance. I could care less if it has side mounted or under tail in terms of wind resistance. I’m never gonna be racing and need to shave a second or two off my race times. Is it a styling statement? Of course. Some have argued that it might be one of the best looking liter bikes ever. I agree with that. Though I think the Kawasaki is an attractive liter bike, it looks a little to rounded for my taste. And doesn’t have much of an aggressive look. Though I will say when I saw the video of it in motion it looked bad ass, especially in mid turn. Handling might be slightly better, but I doubt any average or street rider would notice. But I don't really see anything false in that statement. Yamaha saw that the under tail exhaust was a big selling point for the Honda. Honda also knew it could only give positive aspects if the went with titanium. It does have better wind resistance because of it. It is lighter than most standard exhausts, and the weight (whatever it may be) is now at the center of the bike, instead of to the right. I don’t get how it’s wrong?

Honda was the first company that I heard start talking about mass centralization and what they were referring to was taking weight off of the front of the motorcycle, taking weight off of the rear of the motorcycle and taking weight that was high on the motorcycle and moving it closer to the center of the wheelbase. One advantage to the Unit-Pro-Link Suspension was that the shock was mounted much lower in the chassis, which allowed Honda to move the fuel load back and down also. The more you can centralized the weight between the front and rear wheels, theoretically, the better it will turn. For an example, an arrow has the bulk of its mass at the front end in an effort to keep it from turning. For years Detroit built cars with motors in front of the front axle to make them "safe and stable". They wouldn't turn so somehow that made them safe... Go figure. Porsche (and Corvair) on the other hand found out that the high polar moment of inertia associated with the motor behind the rear axle made for a car you couldn't catch, if you ever got it sliding. In this situation, I think that motorcycle manufacturers are generally referring to centralizing the weight front to rear not right to left. All things being equal, an undertail exhaust will weigh more that a conventional exhaust. It has to go farther. More pipe, more mass. But there are a lot of variables and a full Ti undertail exhaust probably would be lighter than a full stainless conventional exhaust. But that is not the case in the ZX10 vs. R1 scenario. Actually the R1 mid pipe is stainless steel. The ZX10 is Ti. Most of the side mounted cans like the Akrapovic on my R1 are tucked behind my leg and live in the turbulent air that I cause and that turbulent air is unavoidable. When I come back from rides, the minimal dirt / bug splatters on the can are proof that the can is not in the air stream. Hence little if any aerodynamic difference. As far as style. No one can dictate style. That is purely down to individual preferance. No right or wrong there.

Honda was the first company that I heard start talking about mass centralization and what they were referring to was taking weight off of the front of the motorcycle, taking weight off of the rear of the motorcycle and taking weight that was high on the motorcycle and moving it closer to the center of the wheelbase. One advantage to the Unit-Pro-Link Suspension was that the shock was mounted much lower in the chassis, which allowed Honda to move the fuel load back and down also. The more you can centralized the weight between the front and rear wheels, theoretically, the better it will turn. For an example, an arrow has the bulk of its mass at the front end in an effort to keep it from turning. For years Detroit built cars with motors in front of the front axle to make them "safe and stable". They wouldn't turn so somehow that made them safe... Go figure. Porsche (and Corvair) on the other hand found out that the high polar moment of inertia associated with the motor behind the rear axle made for a car you couldn't catch, if you ever got it sliding. In this situation, I think that motorcycle manufacturers are generally referring to centralizing the weight front to rear not right to left. All things being equal, an undertail exhaust will weigh more that a conventional exhaust. It has to go farther. More pipe, more mass. But there are a lot of variables and a full Ti undertail exhaust probably would be lighter than a full stainless conventional exhaust. But that is not the case in the ZX10 vs. R1 scenario. Actually the R1 mid pipe is stainless steel. The ZX10 is Ti. Most of the side mounted cans like the Akrapovic on my R1 are tucked behind my leg and live in the turbulent air that I cause and that turbulent air is unavoidable. When I come back from rides, the minimal dirt / bug splatters on the can are proof that the can is not in the air stream. Hence little if any aerodynamic difference. As far as style. No one can dictate style. That is purely down to individual preferance. No right or wrong there. Nothing wrong with what you said there. But the thing is when talking about 15 pounds, it would be better off for a motorcycle to have it in the center of the bike than to the side. No matter how you slice it would be balanced better. Would it make much difference? Not to someone like me. That’s why I’m least impressed. But does it make a difference? Ever so slightly in my honest opinion. In terms of weight. Yes there is stainless on Yamaha’s new exhaust. But when making an exhaust that is a single side canister mount, they have to use more material (believe or not) to keep the structure from bending or breaking under hard turbulence. So the pipe from the header to the can is much thicker than one used on a dual exhaust which is also mounted to the bike (Not requiring much reinforced strength for support) it could be said that it would be close if not possibly lighter than Kawasaki’s can. That Honda 600RR is one hell of a porker, but I tell you what, it’s exhaust isn’t even titanium but it didn’t feel that much heavier than my after market carbon fiber exhaust. Most likely because the it doesn’t need as much material. True most side mounted aftermarket cans tuck in better than those of stock. But I’m comparing it to Kawasaki’s new bike with the stock can and that thing is huge. I thought the one on my 636 was big until I saw that thing in the pictures. Looks like a missile. The truth of the matter is rather people are brand loyalist or not, these two bikes are extremely close in terms of horsepower and weight. Weight is subjective for either bike and can go either way. Once it isn’t a dry weight bike who knows how much they will weigh wet (That’s why I like British magazines, they always comment on wet weight). And 4 pounds isn’t much difference in all honestly. I can see Kawasaki’s ram air being more effective, because being a center intake setup has been proven over the years to work better than dual side mounted intakes. But 1 to 2 horsepower isn’t going to give any one an edge. What I look forward to the most is simply how they handle. I can’t wait to read the comparisons. Rather you like Kawasaki, hate Honda and Yamaha, no one can deny this is gonna be one hell of a war. I cant wait. :twisted:

My exhaust system weighs a little less than 8 pounds. But that whole 8 pounds is not hung out on the side of the bike. Actually approximately 3 pounds are off the centerline. Truly insignificant when you consider a total bike weight with gas, rider,etc. of 600 lbs. I would bet if you move your butt a 1/4" inch, you can change more than that. The Yamaha Warrior and the ZRX1100 Kawasaki have HUGE hideous side exhaust which would seem to make an obvious differance if anything would. But I have spent many miles riding the ZRX and could not tell the exhaust was there. :D There was a write up by a gentleman who maufactures exhaust systems for a living and he pointed out that due to dangers of liability issues since the exhaust is occupying the same space (so to speak) as the rear wheel. Brackets have to be heavier, pipes have to be more robust, etc on undertail exhaust, not lighter. :roll: No matter how you "look at it" undertail exhaust is strictly a style issue. Like someone else said. NO ONE has claimed a performance advantage for undertail exhaust. But that's OK. There is no right or wrong when it comes to style. :) Now the R1's pointy snapping turtle beak with it's little side nostrils, leaves me cold. :? Oppps, I forgot for a second. "There is no right or wrong when it comes to style." :lol: :lol: :lol: