Is a port job+ thinner head gasket worth the effort?:dontknow:

A good porting is a pretty decent mod. Thinner head gasket isnt worth the time, effort, or cash unless your doing something else that requires the head to be removed.

Is a port job+ thinner head gasket worth the effort?:dontknow: The head & port work from the factory is pretty good considering its a massed produced part/s so adding a thin gasket is quite popular along with degreeing the cams when reassembling everything. BD

A good porting is a pretty decent mod. Thinner head gasket isnt worth the time, effort, or cash unless your doing something else that requires the head to be removed. well i need to remove the head if i want porting :)

how much hp/ torque are we talking about?

There is 15 hp in a port job and different cams. The port job is tricky though, the head actually needs welded on the long side to make a really good port job. Bad thing is the seats need to be removed for this. THe short side on these heads is actually pretty good but the bowl area needs the most work.

sounds like a lot of work and money :(

It is, but what are you trying to accomplish, if you are talking superbike stuff then it is necessary but for track junkies, just a small job and gasket with degree will pick it up 8-10.

naa just a small job i guess...

with .50 head gasket kawi race cam i got 15 hp

with .50 head gasket kawi race cam i got 15 hp mmmm thats what i want :drool:

stock cams, degreed. .50mm gasket, exhaust and tuned. 16hp.

stock cams, degreed. .50mm gasket, exhaust and tuned. 16hp. This is someone that makes a tad bit of sense if you ask me. I'm gonna give you some info about these 10s. I've had plenty of experience with the modding and my bike. Honestly I think headwork is a crock of bull unless you are building an all out hotrod bike. It's not worth the time and money. If you do anything, change out the intake cam with Kawi's race cam ($100) and degree it along with a thin head gasket. That will be good enough for general purposes. Here's my backup to what I'm saying. I did the big deal Carpenter Racing 1077cc kit with both cams, thin head gasket, and head work. I did all dyno work on the same dyno with very similar conditions. With a Muzzy slip on, pc, and filter I did 159.xx hp. With the addition of all that work and a full Arata exhaust, the bike did 173.xxhp. So anyone claiming 15 hp out of headwork is crazy. I shelled out a lot of money between Megacycle cams, headwork, JE pistons, gaskets, etc and gained 14hp AND that's with the addition of a full system. Save your money. Just do the intake cam and a full system with a thin head gasket. Its an inexpensive job and makes decent results. If you want to know the biggest difference I've seen in my bike... its Ivan's TRE in conjuction with a Dynojet Ignition module. I only have it advanced 3 degrees since I haven't had it back to the dyno yet. But the TRE and the ignition module turned my bike into a different beast. It may not be as affective on a stock bore/stock port engine, but it really turned my up a notch. Like I said, no dyno time yet but it will come in the near future. However to give you a feel, the bike is lowered about an inch all around. Stock engine was a little hard to pick up the front wheel in second without giving it a small jerk at stock height. After it was slightly lowered and the engine work done, second came right up and third got real light just in decent acceleration. Now with the ignition advance and the TRE, it stands straight up through the first three gears without even the slightest pull on the handlebars. When I say straight up, I mean almost vertical. My bike went from a strong bike to a beast. I'm the no b.s. kinda guy about this since I've put the $ in it, and I don't want other people wasting money on futile projects expected huge numbers that they see on the net and from engine builders. Carpenter gets his massive numbers from using the addition of race fuel and full exhaust systems. So do consider that when looking at their numbers, whether it be Carpenter or anyone else. Believe it or not, not a single engine builder led me on to the TRE and Ignition module. Thanks to ole Garth285 for filling me in on that one. It has truly made me happy. FYI, I'd expect my bike to be making approx 180hp on pump gas now with that done. I seem to be pulling hard on the top end against my dad's 194hp ZX-12 whereas I was stuck with him before at higher speeds. Any question, feel free to holler at me about them. -Derrick

my bike dynoed at 155hp with a leaking head gasket valves all out of adjustment do to mileage and old ass plugs! did the thin head gasket and race cam and gained 15hp.... im sure some power came from valve adjustment and i was losing power from that and the leaking head gasket... so your telling me im a liar??

the head gasket is very worth it. the porting is not. i know a few guys that had porting done and it actually hurt the bike. on the other hand if you don't think the thin gasket helps just ask all the super sport 1000 drag racers. they do it because it HELPS.

15hp out of a cam and headgasket is not right. Fixing a leaking headgasket with a smaller one and a cam may give you 15... especially if new plugs were put in also. I've finally gotten all the builders to own up to their numbers for full builds.. Carpenter- 185-190hp on race fuel, STD corrected, in 5th gear. That equates to SAE (the standard used) of 173-178hp on pump fuel. Coby Adams- did not mention STD correction but gave the same numbers. His kit is a Kawi intake cam, thin head gasket, JE pistons, port/polish. zx10r85, calling you a liar, not necessarily. I can see a 15 hp gain with valves being adjusted, leaking head fixed, new plugs, and the addition of what was done. However if all had been perfect and you did cam and gasket, you wouldn't have seen a 15hp increase. As far as exact dyno numbers, they are all a little different. Mine may read 180hp on your dyno and only 174 on my dyno. Not nit picking over that, but increases is what I'm saying.

This is someone that makes a tad bit of sense if you ask me. I'm gonna give you some info about these 10s. I've had plenty of experience with the modding and my bike. Honestly I think headwork is a crock of bull unless you are building an all out hotrod bike. It's not worth the time and money. If you do anything, change out the intake cam with Kawi's race cam ($100) and degree it along with a thin head gasket. That will be good enough for general purposes. Here's my backup to what I'm saying. I did the big deal Carpenter Racing 1077cc kit with both cams, thin head gasket, and head work. I did all dyno work on the same dyno with very similar conditions. With a Muzzy slip on, pc, and filter I did 159.xx hp. With the addition of all that work and a full Arata exhaust, the bike did 173.xxhp. So anyone claiming 15 hp out of headwork is crazy. I shelled out a lot of money between Megacycle cams, headwork, JE pistons, gaskets, etc and gained 14hp AND that's with the addition of a full system. Save your money. Just do the intake cam and a full system with a thin head gasket. Its an inexpensive job and makes decent results. If you want to know the biggest difference I've seen in my bike... its Ivan's TRE in conjuction with a Dynojet Ignition module. I only have it advanced 3 degrees since I haven't had it back to the dyno yet. But the TRE and the ignition module turned my bike into a different beast. It may not be as affective on a stock bore/stock port engine, but it really turned my up a notch. Like I said, no dyno time yet but it will come in the near future. However to give you a feel, the bike is lowered about an inch all around. Stock engine was a little hard to pick up the front wheel in second without giving it a small jerk at stock height. After it was slightly lowered and the engine work done, second came right up and third got real light just in decent acceleration. Now with the ignition advance and the TRE, it stands straight up through the first three gears without even the slightest pull on the handlebars. When I say straight up, I mean almost vertical. My bike went from a strong bike to a beast. I'm the no b.s. kinda guy about this since I've put the $ in it, and I don't want other people wasting money on futile projects expected huge numbers that they see on the net and from engine builders. Carpenter gets his massive numbers from using the addition of race fuel and full exhaust systems. So do consider that when looking at their numbers, whether it be Carpenter or anyone else. Believe it or not, not a single engine builder led me on to the TRE and Ignition module. Thanks to ole Garth285 for filling me in on that one. It has truly made me happy. FYI, I'd expect my bike to be making approx 180hp on pump gas now with that done. I seem to be pulling hard on the top end against my dad's 194hp ZX-12 whereas I was stuck with him before at higher speeds. Any question, feel free to holler at me about them. -Derrick Thanks for that reply, it got my thinking again ;) But it worrys me a bit when you say that your bike goes straight up in 3.!!!!! mine needs a little pull in 2. and no way i hell can i get it up in 3. :dontknow:

Thanks for that reply, it got my thinking again ;) But it worrys me a bit when you say that your bike goes straight up in 3.!!!!! mine needs a little pull in 2. and no way i hell can i get it up in 3. :dontknow: No problem man. I have to admit, it is a wild ride. But its what I wanted. I'm 6ft 2in (188cm) and 190lbs (86kg), so I am able to keep a decent handle on the bike. It is a bit much but do remember I have pistons which help on that low end a lot.

Im 194cm and 94kg ;) ill just have to put that 16T i front.

axo250 sorry man for the stab ijust wasnt having a good day! i think the mod is very worth it !

:badteeth: :occasion1

axo250 sorry man for the stab ijust wasnt having a good day! i think the mod is very worth it ! No problem man. I do agree with you that a kawi intake cam and gasket are worth the money and time. However Megacycle or Web cams are not worth nearly a grand for what they will give you unless you are a big time racer. I just don't want people getting their hopes up like I did for head work mainly. Builders shoot out huge numbers for stuff that just isn't gonna happen like they make you expect. MAIN THING is just don't spend a ton of money. I did like some others have and wasn't pleased like I thought I would be. Best thing to do with this bike is to think logical about things. What seems reasonable and what sounds like b.s and what is "good enough" for the money.

hmm, I really want to do it, ne one do it themselves? Id like to but I dont wonna mess it up

never mind, just orderd the 08 today :occasion1 :occasion1 :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I was told that porting was not worth the effort unless you are ringing every bit of hp out of the motor that you can. Instead I was recommended that a polish job be done to the bowls and ports along w/ Kawi Cam & gasket. With a s/o & PCIII I made 158+ rwhp & when the cam & 50mm gasket was installed it went to 162+ rwhp. At this point I was informed that the stock header & SET valve was holding back an extra 4+ rwhp and I recently installed a full Muzzy system so when I get it retuned I will update with new HP figures. Also anybody that needs them my Dyno charts are available. They are SAE corrected and done on the same Dyonjet 250 by the same tuner.

My bike was probably done by the tuner Jokers bike was... Chris Hill?

hmm, I really want to do it, ne one do it themselves? Id like to but I dont wonna mess it up Its a doable job if you are somewhat mechanically inclined. Its a pain taking the bike completely apart because the motor does have to come out. You will need someone to help you take it out and put it back in. Its nearly impossible for one man to do. Cam timing is something you can learn to do or probably get someone to do for you locally at a decent price. Other than that its not a huge undertaking as it would be to do pistons.

My bike was probably done by the tuner Jokers bike was... Chris Hill? Yes, Chris tuned my bike and I thought he done a good job. How was yours when he tuned it?

This is someone that makes a tad bit of sense if you ask me. I'm gonna give you some info about these 10s. I've had plenty of experience with the modding and my bike. Honestly I think headwork is a crock of bull unless you are building an all out hotrod bike. It's not worth the time and money. If you do anything, change out the intake cam with Kawi's race cam ($100) and degree it along with a thin head gasket. That will be good enough for general purposes. Here's my backup to what I'm saying. I did the big deal Carpenter Racing 1077cc kit with both cams, thin head gasket, and head work. I did all dyno work on the same dyno with very similar conditions. With a Muzzy slip on, pc, and filter I did 159.xx hp. With the addition of all that work and a full Arata exhaust, the bike did 173.xxhp. So anyone claiming 15 hp out of headwork is crazy. I shelled out a lot of money between Megacycle cams, headwork, JE pistons, gaskets, etc and gained 14hp AND that's with the addition of a full system. Save your money. Just do the intake cam and a full system with a thin head gasket. Its an inexpensive job and makes decent results. If you want to know the biggest difference I've seen in my bike... its Ivan's TRE in conjuction with a Dynojet Ignition module. I only have it advanced 3 degrees since I haven't had it back to the dyno yet. But the TRE and the ignition module turned my bike into a different beast. It may not be as affective on a stock bore/stock port engine, but it really turned my up a notch. Like I said, no dyno time yet but it will come in the near future. However to give you a feel, the bike is lowered about an inch all around. Stock engine was a little hard to pick up the front wheel in second without giving it a small jerk at stock height. After it was slightly lowered and the engine work done, second came right up and third got real light just in decent acceleration. Now with the ignition advance and the TRE, it stands straight up through the first three gears without even the slightest pull on the handlebars. When I say straight up, I mean almost vertical. My bike went from a strong bike to a beast. I'm the no b.s. kinda guy about this since I've put the $ in it, and I don't want other people wasting money on futile projects expected huge numbers that they see on the net and from engine builders. Carpenter gets his massive numbers from using the addition of race fuel and full exhaust systems. So do consider that when looking at their numbers, whether it be Carpenter or anyone else. Believe it or not, not a single engine builder led me on to the TRE and Ignition module. Thanks to ole Garth285 for filling me in on that one. It has truly made me happy. FYI, I'd expect my bike to be making approx 180hp on pump gas now with that done. I seem to be pulling hard on the top end against my dad's 194hp ZX-12 whereas I was stuck with him before at higher speeds. Any question, feel free to holler at me about them. -Derrick good info man..some poeple dont appreciate that you went throu all this time and money just to get the actual facts on the hp #'s and u puting the info out here...it save us alot time and bs from other poeple claiming there hp#'s..i guess i'll go with the thin head gasket.50 and degree kawi race cams combo maybe ignition module... thats good hp for my style of street riding

good info man..some poeple dont appreciate that you went throu all this time and money just to get the actual facts on the hp #'s and u puting the info out here...it save us alot time and bs from other poeple claiming there hp#'s..i guess i'll go with the thin head gasket.50 and degree kawi race cams combo maybe ignition module... thats good hp for my style of street riding I appreciate it man. I figured its the least I could do. Speaking of the Kawis Race cams, only buy the intake. Leave the exhaust cam in. From what I've heard on here, the race exhaust cam actually hurts the power output relative to just degreeing the stock exhaust cam. Joker, yeah Chris did a good job with my bike and my dads. Mine has been up to his place about 3 times now. I'll be back up there shortly again to get my timing module dialed in right and to remap with that. It seems like it leaned the bike out some.

This is someone that makes a tad bit of sense if you ask me. I'm gonna give you some info about these 10s. I've had plenty of experience with the modding and my bike. Honestly I think headwork is a crock of bull unless you are building an all out hotrod bike. It's not worth the time and money. If you do anything, change out the intake cam with Kawi's race cam ($100) and degree it along with a thin head gasket. That will be good enough for general purposes. Here's my backup to what I'm saying. I did the big deal Carpenter Racing 1077cc kit with both cams, thin head gasket, and head work. I did all dyno work on the same dyno with very similar conditions. With a Muzzy slip on, pc, and filter I did 159.xx hp. With the addition of all that work and a full Arata exhaust, the bike did 173.xxhp. So anyone claiming 15 hp out of headwork is crazy. I shelled out a lot of money between Megacycle cams, headwork, JE pistons, gaskets, etc and gained 14hp AND that's with the addition of a full system. Save your money. Just do the intake cam and a full system with a thin head gasket. Its an inexpensive job and makes decent results. If you want to know the biggest difference I've seen in my bike... its Ivan's TRE in conjuction with a Dynojet Ignition module. I only have it advanced 3 degrees since I haven't had it back to the dyno yet. But the TRE and the ignition module turned my bike into a different beast. It may not be as affective on a stock bore/stock port engine, but it really turned my up a notch. Like I said, no dyno time yet but it will come in the near future. However to give you a feel, the bike is lowered about an inch all around. Stock engine was a little hard to pick up the front wheel in second without giving it a small jerk at stock height. After it was slightly lowered and the engine work done, second came right up and third got real light just in decent acceleration. Now with the ignition advance and the TRE, it stands straight up through the first three gears without even the slightest pull on the handlebars. When I say straight up, I mean almost vertical. My bike went from a strong bike to a beast. I'm the no b.s. kinda guy about this since I've put the $ in it, and I don't want other people wasting money on futile projects expected huge numbers that they see on the net and from engine builders. Carpenter gets his massive numbers from using the addition of race fuel and full exhaust systems. So do consider that when looking at their numbers, whether it be Carpenter or anyone else. Believe it or not, not a single engine builder led me on to the TRE and Ignition module. Thanks to ole Garth285 for filling me in on that one. It has truly made me happy. FYI, I'd expect my bike to be making approx 180hp on pump gas now with that done. I seem to be pulling hard on the top end against my dad's 194hp ZX-12 whereas I was stuck with him before at higher speeds. Any question, feel free to holler at me about them. -Derrick Thanks Derrick for sharing this first class information. I have installed in my 04/10R: PCIII, Ignition module, K&N, F.Pro v.stacks, Akra Hex slip on, Kawi intake race cam, lambda sensor. Iīve not degreed the race cam, and installed it in the as stock possition, since I donīt have any information so as to degree it. Do you have the true degree numbers of intake and exhaust to degree to? Will the midrange power decrease after the cam adjustment? I think that some power is behind this adjustment but I donīt have any reliable source here in Argentina. Hope you may help me out with this. Regards Pablo

Thanks Derrick for sharing this first class information. I have installed in my 04/10R: PCIII, Ignition module, K&N, F.Pro v.stacks, Akra Hex slip on, Kawi intake race cam, lambda sensor. Iīve not degreed the race cam, and installed it in the as stock possition, since I donīt have any information so as to degree it. Do you have the true degree numbers of intake and exhaust to degree to? Will the midrange power decrease after the cam adjustment? I think that some power is behind this adjustment but I donīt have any reliable source here in Argentina. Hope you may help me out with this. Regards Pablo Pablo, I do not have definite numbers to degree the Kawi Race Intake and Stock Exhaust cams. I have a very different cam setup. There are some threads on here that talk about the different set-ups and the main ones used. Best I remember though, the general opinion was to set the intake to 108 and the exhaust to 102-103. Hopefully some of those people will chime in. If not, send a PM to garth285. He should be able to help you since he has that setup and is very familiar with all the different numbers. You can try doing a search first for "kawi intake cam" or something along those lines. Cam degreeing can make a big difference. Really "losing" and "gaining" horsepower are bad terms to use in cam timing. Basically you are shifting your power regions around. You can set them up to get more midrange while not getting the full benefit on the top end or vice versa. I'd say from there get the power commander remapped for that setup and for the ignition module if you have not yet. My ignition module is set to +3 degrees right now and its rockin. I may try to advance higher in the top range but will wait for dyno time to decide. Let me know if there's anything I can help with and good luck. Be sure to get someone to help you with the cam degreeing if you are the least bit unsure on how to do it. It can be tricky. One little mistake can put you a long ways off. -Derrick

Pablo, I do not have definite numbers to degree the Kawi Race Intake and Stock Exhaust cams. I have a very different cam setup. There are some threads on here that talk about the different set-ups and the main ones used. Best I remember though, the general opinion was to set the intake to 108 and the exhaust to 102-103. Hopefully some of those people will chime in. If not, send a PM to garth285. He should be able to help you since he has that setup and is very familiar with all the different numbers. You can try doing a search first for "kawi intake cam" or something along those lines. Cam degreeing can make a big difference. Really "losing" and "gaining" horsepower are bad terms to use in cam timing. Basically you are shifting your power regions around. You can set them up to get more midrange while not getting the full benefit on the top end or vice versa. I'd say from there get the power commander remapped for that setup and for the ignition module if you have not yet. My ignition module is set to +3 degrees right now and its rockin. I may try to advance higher in the top range but will wait for dyno time to decide. Let me know if there's anything I can help with and good luck. Be sure to get someone to help you with the cam degreeing if you are the least bit unsure on how to do it. It can be tricky. One little mistake can put you a long ways off. -Derrick Thanks Derrick, Iīm taking note of the numbers you are giving me. Iīll make the search for the topic also, and eventually try to contact Garth285. Iīve made extensive dyno testing, and best number itīs been 192,5 hp at the crank, about 181 rwhp (1018 hPa ambient preasure). The dyno has an 8hp axial blower directing the air through a pipe to the nose of the bike simulating the ram air. For the PCIII map I use a 4 wire Bosch lambda sensor and a voltmeter. 12,7/12,8-1 has proved to be best power ratio both on the track and on the dyno. You know..thereīs been some surprises along with the Ignition module. On the low portion of the tach, up to 6000rpm the engine likes 5 degrees; more or less that point onwards, power is hurt if you keep that 5°. I was really surprised to see that power increased from 6000 rpm on to rev.lim. by retarding, -6 at 9000, -2 at 13000. May be the fuel around here...I just donīt know, but it liked this. I can send you my best map if you would like to take a look at it. You may need to make dyno testing to see if you obtain similar results as me. Back to the cam timming, I really have doubts on how to do it the correct (or best) way. Iīd appreciate if you have any information about this on hand to send me. I mean "on hand" as I donīt want to make you loose your time with this Regards Pablo

Thats really surprising that your bike is running better on the top with retarding the timing. I have heard that stock bore/head bikes sometimes do better with that, especially on the gsxr1000. I'll be interested to see what it looks like on the dyno. My tuner did say that we will most likely be adding timing to mine beause of the build. I know Garth has his at full advance in the top. As far as the lambda sensor I'm unfamiliar with those. I have no knowledge whatsoever of those. For cam timing. I found a couple of links to help you out. The last link actually talks about where power is located with your cam timing and how that effects it. I figured you would like to read on it. As far as the process, these did a pretty good job explaining things and how to calculate where you are at with your timing. You can do the timing with the motor in the bike, however it can be hard to get your dial gauge set exactly perpendicular to the cups unless you have the right equipment for it. I didn't so we took the motor out. That is one of the most important things you have to have dead on. If you are a little off, your timing can be 10 degress off in a heartbeat. The cups are sitting at an angle from the motor so be aware of that. Other than that, just follow directions and get the calculator out to double check your math. Holler if you have any specifics. Me or someone else should be able to help. Links: http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/cam_timing.htm http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9604_hand/ http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0306_art Good luck. Derrick

Thats really surprising that your bike is running better on the top with retarding the timing. I have heard that stock bore/head bikes sometimes do better with that, especially on the gsxr1000. I'll be interested to see what it looks like on the dyno. My tuner did say that we will most likely be adding timing to mine beause of the build. I know Garth has his at full advance in the top. As far as the lambda sensor I'm unfamiliar with those. I have no knowledge whatsoever of those. For cam timing. I found a couple of links to help you out. The last link actually talks about where power is located with your cam timing and how that effects it. I figured you would like to read on it. As far as the process, these did a pretty good job explaining things and how to calculate where you are at with your timing. You can do the timing with the motor in the bike, however it can be hard to get your dial gauge set exactly perpendicular to the cups unless you have the right equipment for it. I didn't so we took the motor out. That is one of the most important things you have to have dead on. If you are a little off, your timing can be 10 degress off in a heartbeat. The cups are sitting at an angle from the motor so be aware of that. Other than that, just follow directions and get the calculator out to double check your math. Holler if you have any specifics. Me or someone else should be able to help. Links: http://www.alcester-racing-sevens.com/cam_timing.htm http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9604_hand/ http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0306_art Good luck. Derrick Your first link lost me after suggesting not only using 3 guages, but using 1 to find Top Dead Center by finding when the piston is at it highest. Maybe those drag race engines are different from motorcycle engines (I doubt it), but every engine I have tuned the piston dwells a few degrees at TDC and the only true way to find TDC is with a positive piston stop threaded into the spark plug hole and checking degrees on boths sides of the positive stop to determine true top dead center. I have a mathematical chart somewhere that tells you what the intake cam lobe center should be set at on any engine should based on rod length and stroke. We all know what the stroke is on the 10, but the rod length is half the length of the connecting rod measured from center of big end to center of little end. I mentioned this once B4 on this forum but to date haven't found anyone with an engine apart to measure the rod correctly and divide by 2. I guess I will have to buy a spare rod to satisfy my curiosity. I know it works as I have used it B4 on other engines. I got if from a NASCAR engineer about 10 years ago. I could probably post it on this site. It is a simple chart where one side lists rod lengths and the other the engine stroke. This formula does not work for the exhaust #s. JJ

Your first link lost me after suggesting not only using 3 guages, but using 1 to find Top Dead Center by finding when the piston is at it highest. Maybe those drag race engines are different from motorcycle engines (I doubt it), but every engine I have tuned the piston dwells a few degrees at TDC and the only true way to find TDC is with a positive piston stop threaded into the spark plug hole and checking degrees on boths sides of the positive stop to determine true top dead center. I have a mathematical chart somewhere that tells you what the intake cam lobe center should be set at on any engine should based on rod length and stroke. We all know what the stroke is on the 10, but the rod length is half the length of the connecting rod measured from center of big end to center of little end. I mentioned this once B4 on this forum but to date haven't found anyone with an engine apart to measure the rod correctly and divide by 2. I guess I will have to buy a spare rod to satisfy my curiosity. I know it works as I have used it B4 on other engines. I got if from a NASCAR engineer about 10 years ago. I could probably post it on this site. It is a simple chart where one side lists rod lengths and the other the engine stroke. This formula does not work for the exhaust #s. JJ JJ, that's interesting about the rod length. My only question on that is why do intake cam numbers vary then? Because Megacycle recommended my intake cam be set at 102. However Carpenter had it set at 109. I think the chart you are referring to will put you in a good middle range, but varying that value may produce power in a more needed range (ie top end on these bikes). You may be able to look up Carillo or call them and find specs on the rod length. I didn't take the time to read through the whole articles that I posted. But it is only necessary to have one gauge to measure along with a degree wheel. Using a piston stop that threads in the spark plug hole is the best thing to use to find TDC. However if you do not have one, using a small rod would work. The local guy who does drag motors actually did my cams that way. TDC seemed to be a very brief moment. Just wiggle the crank back and forth till it settles for that brief moment. Being a tiny tiny bit off on TDC would not kill the degreeing as it would if the dial gauge was set up non perpendicular to the cups. -Derrick

sorry for joining the thread late lol... im sure I can help out somewhere. heres some small stuff good air ful lambda numbers will be around .89 - .90 on the street, dyno numbers will be a lil lower since you cant simulate engine load to its truest form..... ***(just re-read up top you are doin air/fuel.... 12.8-12.9 is good down here in S florida so im sure you might need somethign differnet whenre you are) good cam numbers I suggest to run are 107/103-103.5 seems to put the power just in the right spot. I wouldnt do any porting but maybe port matching on the intake boots and thats about it, kawi race manual ( I have in PDF if u need) says take 1mm off the intake runners but some head builders say kawis are always large to begin with so not needed. Thin head gasket I say sure to, its not to much more to take the head off and always gives you time to peak in there and check things out like bottom of valves and piston tops (well I did for nitrous reasons lol) Real odd your retarding timing but not uncommon, some people are actually retarding timing quite a bit to get the spark extremely close to TDC and let the flame front go down ward as the piston goes down. so just all in the matter of fuel and tuning conditions and such. AXO250 is absoutly right when it comes to peoples claims of dyno numbers.... I stopped telling people how much power my bike makes cause to be honest.... who the hell knows!!! dynos should only be used for one thing and thats as a tuning tool to get the bike a as close as possible map and to look at before and after differences in the bike such as exhasut or cams or w/e you wanna throw at it. I have had my bike on a few dynos and they all read so far apart theres no saying on how much power you have. theres lots of performance mods to do to the bike, I suggest spending your time just goin threw old posts.... hell I even do that and ive been on here givin info to people for quite some time. If ya need anything shoot me a PM I dont mind helping people out.... hell I have random people calling me asking me about zx10r stuff for 30-60 mins at a time!!! lol.... I dont know how they get my number but I dont care.... all more for a name to be put out when im out of school...... oh yeah one more thing on install. it is possible to do it your self but get a bud to help you, ive done a number of zx10s and i have it down pat but one thing thats always a pain is holding the head up while trying to pivot it around the cam chain guide to take the head off..... and you must be very presice on the cam degreeing so just take your time and research everything....

JJ, that's interesting about the rod length. My only question on that is why do intake cam numbers vary then? Because Megacycle recommended my intake cam be set at 102. However Carpenter had it set at 109. I think the chart you are referring to will put you in a good middle range, but varying that value may produce power in a more needed range (ie top end on these bikes). You may be able to look up Carillo or call them and find specs on the rod length. I didn't take the time to read through the whole articles that I posted. But it is only necessary to have one gauge to measure along with a degree wheel. Using a piston stop that threads in the spark plug hole is the best thing to use to find TDC. However if you do not have one, using a small rod would work. The local guy who does drag motors actually did my cams that way. TDC seemed to be a very brief moment. Just wiggle the crank back and forth till it settles for that brief moment. Being a tiny tiny bit off on TDC would not kill the degreeing as it would if the dial gauge was set up non perpendicular to the cups. -Derrick The chart was designe around best peak power, so I was told. A NASCAR engineer developed it. Im going to buy a ZX10 rod to measure it, the curiosity is killing me. I will try and post the chart later. As for TDC being brief, from my experience the piston can dwell at TDC anywhere from 4-6 degress, and this is plenty enough to throw #s off when degreeing. I always use a TDC mechanical stop to find true TDC. JJ

you can probably call falicon or carillo or look on their site and they will have a rod length.

Well good judgement needs to be used in finding TDC if the best equipment isn't used for sure. I'm not sure what kinda duration the 10 has in that regards, but its best to find a mid point on it definitely.

you can probably call falicon or carillo or look on their site and they will have a rod length. ZX10R `04-`06 4 KA-X104<-54203S 5/16 CARR 4.203 106.75 OK Falicon sites says the rod length is 4.203 inches or 106.75MM. I will input that # into the chart when I get home tonight and see what it says is the best lobe center # for the intake cam. Stay tuned. JJ

ZX10R `04-`06 4 KA-X104<-54203S 5/16 CARR 4.203 106.75 OK Falicon sites says the rod length is 4.203 inches or 106.75MM. I will input that # into the chart when I get home tonight and see what it says is the best lobe center # for the intake cam. Stay tuned. JJ According to this chart you divide the stroke by 2 (55/2 = 27.5) Most mathmeticians would agree to round up any number .5 or greater so our stroke radius is 28, and connecting rod length is 107MM. Based on this chart, the correct theoretical lobe center would be 104 degrees for the intake cam. Again, this chart doesn't work for the exhaust. My scanner is down, but I will make a digital photo of this chart later tonight and post. I use to run 105/105 on my ZX7 superbike engines except at Daytona and I ran numbers at Daytona given to me by a man by the name of Kevin Blaze of Blaze cycles, who at the time was in South Florida. He once said to me if I "didnt care about midrange" use 104 Intake and 107 exhaust lobe centers. That was what I ran on the ZX7's at Daytona. I think I will use similar #s when I do my 10R's cams. 104 on intake, but undecided on exhaust at this time. JJ

104 has been used before and I don't think there was a ton of beef about that setting.

Thanks again Derrick for the links to cam degree; and also to Garth for all the tips to have in mind. I agree with both of you that dyno numbers are just to assess gains or losses, before and after mods. Dynos really differ from each other, and so the figures they give out. JJ: that formula seems to give the number for an all-at-redline power output. Itīs amaizing that there is a formula for that. I didnīt know that would exist. I used to think cam adjustment was a matter of experience and try/error method. It still can be this way, but that formula gives an incredible approach

104 has been used before and I don't think there was a ton of beef about that setting. Yeah I agree, I think 104 for the intake is perfect. Attached is a photo of the chart I keep refering to. The gray column on the left is the stroke of the engine divded by 2. The gray column across the top is the connecting rod length. In our 10R case, the # in the Gray left column is 28, and the closest # to 107across the top is 105. See if this makes sense. According to the NASCAR engineer that gave me this chart, how long the piston dwells at TDC is important to power. The longer the better and the longest connecting rod you can fit in the engine is best. Thats why the Race Kit pistons have no lower oil control rings. The race connecting rods are longer and they move the wrist pin higher up to compensate for the longer connecting rod and as such the lower oil control rings are in the way and not used. I bought some of these for the older ZX7 superbikes and we refered to them as long rod motors. I hope you find the chart interesting. Remember, the Gray column to the left is the engine stroke divided by 2, and the Gray column across the top is the length of the connecting rod. JJ

ahhh Mr blaze lol..... to quote someone.... "Ive never seen someone punch in numbers on the dyno after a run as much as him" numbers are just numbers and to find your best cam numbers it might take a while of fine tuning the cam numbers, i spent some good time on cams but I only went down to 106 range, the lower the intake went the less power it made where i wanted it. all it takes is R&D time......

I use to run 105/105 on my ZX7 superbike engines except at Daytona and I ran numbers at Daytona given to me by a man by the name of Kevin Blaze of Blaze cycles, who at the time was in South Florida. He once said to me if I "didnt care about midrange" use 104 Intake and 107 exhaust lobe centers. That was what I ran on the ZX7's at Daytona. I think I will use similar #s when I do my 10R's cams. 104 on intake, but undecided on exhaust at this time. JJ Hey JJ, I'm not trying to be smart here but do zx7 cam degrees have anything to do with zx10r cam degrees? Different engines, different degrees, different engine response or am I missing something here :dontknow: Again, I must add I'm not very technical so just trying to find out what's what. Btw I am also looking for cam degree advice (kawi race intake / std exhaust), I don't want to sacrifice much of the midrange, I am willing to lose a bit on topend. So basically I'm looking for degrees that'll give me a sweet spot between mid and topend, not just top end monster and nothing below 8-9k. Any ideas?

ahhh Mr blaze lol..... to quote someone.... "Ive never seen someone punch in numbers on the dyno after a run as much as him" numbers are just numbers and to find your best cam numbers it might take a while of fine tuning the cam numbers, i spent some good time on cams but I only went down to 106 range, the lower the intake went the less power it made where i wanted it. all it takes is R&D time...... I didn't know Mr. blaze personally, but his privater bikes out pulled Muzzys at Daytona in 1995, I saw it myself. That was the year Scott Russell crashed, remounted and still won the race. How old was you then Garth, about 10? :lol: Just kiddin...... The problem with a lot of fine tuning cam timing is it requires a lot of painstaking work on an engine that is not easy to adjust the cam timing on. Not everyone or many for that matter are going to want to do it more than once. Most people want some good #s and let it go at that. But thats part of the fun of it I guess. JJ

Hey JJ, I'm not trying to be smart here but do zx7 cam degrees have anything to do with zx10r cam degrees? Different engines, different degrees, different engine response or am I missing something here :dontknow: Again, I must add I'm not very technical so just trying to find out what's what. Btw I am also looking for cam degree advice (kawi race intake / std exhaust), I don't want to sacrifice much of the midrange, I am willing to lose a bit on topend. So basically I'm looking for degrees that'll give me a sweet spot between mid and topend, not just top end monster and nothing below 8-9k. Any ideas? Actually they do have much in common when you consider the mathematics of the engine design, they are very close to the same Intake cam lobe center requirement. Especially if you use the ZX7 kit long rod that was 1MM longer than stock and exactly the same length as the 10R stock rod. I had an engine builder one time tell me that "Engine Dynamics are the same for everybody". From the amatuer to the expert. Here is what I am going to use eventually: Kawi RACE Intake set at 105 Stock exhaust set at 105 The same #s I ran on the ZX7 Superbikes. As to the exhaust cam Iron Mike Harth once told me, the pistons will push all that sh!t out anyway. You also need to consider valve overlap, the more you have, the more biased towards top end HP you will get. I dont want to screw out the best feature of the 10R motor and that is its huge advantage over the competition in the midrange. Im am going to crunch these #s some more in an engine modeling program I have. I will post what I come up with in the near future. Then I still need to measure where the cams actually are stock in the motor and NOT what the shop manual says they are. This should be done first to have a base to work from. I have not done this yet. JJ

Hey JJ, I'm not trying to be smart here but do zx7 cam degrees have anything to do with zx10r cam degrees? Different engines, different degrees, different engine response or am I missing something here :dontknow: Again, I must add I'm not very technical so just trying to find out what's what. Btw I am also looking for cam degree advice (kawi race intake / std exhaust), I don't want to sacrifice much of the midrange, I am willing to lose a bit on topend. So basically I'm looking for degrees that'll give me a sweet spot between mid and topend, not just top end monster and nothing below 8-9k. Any ideas? I'd say most bikes have intake cams numbers in the same range of +- 5 degrees. However the cam design has a lot to do with things. Cam numbers on a gsxr1000 will differ from those on the zx10. Its very heavily weighted upon the lift and duration of the cam. So no motorcycle is exactly alike. That was my main concern that chart JJ had. Amazing it worked out to be a very reasonable number for our set ups. But things are still dependent upon more than just the rods. My case in point is my intake produces the best hp at 109 while 104 may be the best place for the Kawi intake. I'm sure there are other considerations dependent upon what else is done to the motor also. But I believe that chart JJ had probably gives some really good numbers to stick close too.

However the cam design has a lot to do with things. :+1: Yeah that's one of the important factors that I forgot to add.

Wow guys......! Iīve been doing a little of maths and get this numbers: Stock cams : Intake: open 46 BTDC close 74 ABDC (taken from service manual) Mathematically this means that center lobe is at 104 !! Exhaust: open 66 BBDC close 46 ATDC So, center lobe is at 100 Stock amount of overlap: 46 + 46 = 92° To degree the exhaust cam to the desirable 103, we should advance it by 3°. That means that new stock exhaust cam timing should be: Open 69 BBDC Close 43 ATDC We know that the race intake cam has 10 more degrees of duration than stock cam, but donīt know how this 10° are distributed over BTDC and ABDC. As far as I can guess without any measurement made yet, the engine seems to be over-overlaped with this race cam. Even with the stock intake cam, if you want to set 107/103, itīs necessary to retard the intake by 3° and advance the exhaust also by 3°, for a total of 6° less overlap. 4 Iīm sure that with the intake race cam it becomes much more overlaped, loosing power. Thatīs a possible explanation of why 104 for intake didnīt work. Perhaps it would work with a more restrictive intake configuration (stock air filter, stock v.stacks, etc) I donīt know..:dontknow:

The numbers I saw in previous cam related threads are around 107/103 - 103.5, 108/102 (kawi recommended) etc. But I suspect they are for top end power.

Here is an excellent link from Schnitz Racing. I used it to dial in my Yoshimura cams on my GSXR-1000 and my intake cam to exhaust swap in my Hayabusa. Personally I like alittle more midrange tuning so I run higher numbers. As thier link says all motors are different and numbers for a fuel injected bike are different for a carburated bike. When I install my Kawi race cam gonna shoot for 107/104. http://www.schnitzracing.com/technical_corner.htm

the 107/103 range does not limit the mid range to having little or no power..... I really wish i had access to all my dyno runs of misc cam timing..... the reason why I went with 107/103.5 is because it made best power everywhere. The power climbed all the way until redline and peaked jsut befroe hitting the rev limiter. very interesting mathmatics though guys!!!!! so with 107/103 are we doing less valve over lap?

Garth, we are doing less overlap for sure. Stock is 104/100, as calculated. Here is an extract taken from a link given by Derrick(Axo250), from Sport Rider magazine: ...For applications of changing cam timing and valve overlap, we spoke with J. Andrew Milton, former Willow Springs champion, proprietor of SuperSport Engine Development, and husband to SR's art director, the divine Mrs. Milton. According to Milton, there are few generalizations that can be made as far as actual cam timing numbers go. Numbers that work for one particular engine will not necessarily work for a different setup, and experimentation is the key. Typically, however, small lobe center numbers (more overlap) equates to more midrange power at the expense of top-end power, and big numbers (less overlap) will give more top end, sacrificing midrange. Milton also notes that the airbox, ram air setup, and especially the exhaust system on newer bikes, all interact with and affect optimum cam timing settings and that again, experimentation is required when changes are made elsewhere.

There is 15 hp in a port job and different cams. The port job is tricky though, the head actually needs welded on the long side to make a really good port job. Bad thing is the seats need to be removed for this. THe short side on these heads is actually pretty good but the bowl area needs the most work. Hey, can u please explain where and why this weld area is needed? :dontknow:

Hey JJ, I have been trying to crunch these numbers for a while now. 107/103 does sound good but has anyone thought of 105/105.5. Also what kind of engine program are you using? I am using the Engine Jr. from Racing Systems Analysis. It does not factor in the lobe numbers but it uses intake duration @ .050 lift and if you have any flow numbers for your head you can enter that in the program also.

Hey JJ, I have been trying to crunch these numbers for a while now. 107/103 does sound good but has anyone thought of 105/105.5. Also what kind of engine program are you using? I am using the Engine Jr. from Racing Systems Analysis. It does not factor in the lobe numbers but it uses intake duration @ .050 lift and if you have any flow numbers for your head you can enter that in the program also. Its a engine program a friend gave to me. Don't recall the name and I am not at home at the moment. Will check later tonight. I can't possibly believe a .5 (1/2 degree) would make a difference. There are probably that much error in anyones set up. I doubt 1 degree either way would make much noticeable change. I am going with 104 on intake. Have not decided on the exhaust. I am going to check where the stock exhaust currently is before deciding on that #. JJ

I am going with 104 on intake. Have not decided on the exhaust. I am going to check where the stock exhaust currently is before deciding on that #. JJ 104 on intake is stock :beer:

104 on intake is stock :beer: Yes, I know that 104 is what is published. I am sticking with 104 because thats what the math formula states is optimal based on stroke radius and connecting rod length for this engine. So if it is actually at 104 when I measure it, then Kawasaki got it right. JJ

JJ, donīt forget that Kawasaki is recommending 108 for intake. This number is in the race kit manual. Mine is still at 104. I did not degreed it yet. It pulls strong but seems like can be improved. Iīll go with Garth numbers (107/103.5)

yeah 107/103 are good numbers if anything maybe PM sal from ace performance.... I dont think he will give cam numbers since they are usually top secret but hes here under the name THEICEMAN maybe ask what he suggests but ive done lots of dyno testing with cam numbers and those numbers work great.... race manual says 108/102 right?

Yep. 108/102 :beer:

JJ, donīt forget that Kawasaki is recommending 108 for intake. This number is in the race kit manual. Mine is still at 104. I did not degreed it yet. It pulls strong but seems like can be improved. Iīll go with Garth numbers (107/103.5) I am aware of that but keep in mind those Race Kit manuals are not written by any Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) engineers in Japan. They are in fact written by the British Superbike team. As you read it you may now notice a distinct British tone to the wording of the manuals. WTF do they know? Those RACE manuals have been produced over the years ever since 1991 ZX7's, and have been woe full of ERRORS and gross mistakes!!!! Dont take what those manuals say as the gospel thinking some engineer in Japan decided that 108 was the best. Thats not the case. I am going to go with 104 on the Intake and not frack with it and split hairs over it. Haven't decided on the exhaust. Waiting to see where it really is. JJ

yeah 107/103 are good numbers if anything maybe PM sal from ace performance.... I dont think he will give cam numbers since they are usually top secret but hes here under the name THEICEMAN maybe ask what he suggests but ive done lots of dyno testing with cam numbers and those numbers work great.... race manual says 108/102 right? See my last post as to what I think about those RACE manuals. Know the best way to find the perfect cam timing? The BEST #s are the ones that give you the highest cranking compression. But these modern engines make it difficult as hell to degree cams with the engine in the frame. If you had the engine out of the frame and bolted to a stand where you could turn the engine over by the starter and easily measure the cranking compression, you could then monkey around with the cam timing to find the #s that produced the highest cranking compression. Gesus H. Krist, I'm giving away all the good secrets. JJ

yeah 107/103 are good numbers if anything maybe PM sal from ace performance.... I dont think he will give cam numbers since they are usually top secret but hes here under the name THEICEMAN maybe ask what he suggests but ive done lots of dyno testing with cam numbers and those numbers work great.... race manual says 108/102 right? See my last post as to what I think about those RACE manuals. Know the best way to find the perfect cam timing? The BEST #s are the ones that give you the highest cranking compression. But these modern engines make it difficult as hell to degree cams with the engine in the frame. If you had the engine out of the frame and bolted to a stand where you could turn the engine over by the starter and easily measure the cranking compression, you could then monkey around with the cam timing to find the #s that produced the highest cranking compression. Gesus H. Krist, I'm giving away all the good secrets. JJ Thatīs a good one:rolleyes: You left me thinking about this.. So you say that finding the highest cranking compression you will have the highest peak horsepower possible for that engine? What about the torque curve relative to flow dinamics and cam timming? (midrange power vs topend horsepower):rolleyes:

[QUOTE=JimmyJam;779991] Thatīs a good one:rolleyes: You left me thinking about this.. So you say that finding the highest cranking compression you will have the highest peak horsepower possible for that engine? What about the torque curve relative to flow dinamics and cam timming? (midrange power vs topend horsepower):rolleyes: YES, as it is affected by overlap and inital opening of the intake cam. It builds more cranking compression/pressure because more air comes in efficently and less is lost during overlap, hence more cranking compression and then more power and tourqe. I may do that someday to find the best #s. Going to start constructing a stand I think. JJ

Just a good starting point from Dale Walker @ holeshot.... he says that for a broad powerband for most Suzuki and Kawasaki motors between 104-105 both on the intake and exhaust. His cam degreeing videos are in the most of your cam degreeing kits you buy from Schnitz and Web Cam. FYI But I thought about the 107/103 numbers and they do sound good.

Just a good starting point from Dale Walker @ holeshot.... he says that for a broad powerband for most Suzuki and Kawasaki motors between 104-105 both on the intake and exhaust. His cam degreeing videos are in the most of your cam degreeing kits you buy from Schnitz and Web Cam. FYI But I thought about the 107/103 numbers and they do sound good. That quote of 104-105 for both intake and exhaust for a carburated bike or fuel injected. It does make a difference.

the 107/103 range does not limit the mid range to having little or no power..... I really wish i had access to all my dyno runs of misc cam timing..... the reason why I went with 107/103.5 is because it made best power everywhere. The power climbed all the way until redline and peaked jsut befroe hitting the rev limiter. very interesting mathmatics though guys!!!!! so with 107/103 are we doing less valve over lap? Hey Garth, Are you useing the kit exhaust cam too or just the kit intake also are you useing the kit ecu with the higher rev-limitor? I'm working on getting parts together, trying to figure out what I should do... I'm thinking the kit intake heavier springs .55 head gasket and possibly the exhuast cam too. looking for some guidance on what to do for my race bike. thanks in advance

quick question, with these port jobs and polishing etc what are the compression ratio. I know the stock ratio is 12.7:1

Hey Garth, Are you useing the kit exhaust cam too or just the kit intake also are you useing the kit ecu with the higher rev-limitor? I'm working on getting parts together, trying to figure out what I should do... I'm thinking the kit intake heavier springs .55 head gasket and possibly the exhuast cam too. looking for some guidance on what to do for my race bike. thanks in advance That is also my same setup but I dont have the kit springs... If you want a good set of springs get the ones from Schnitz the Carpenter Race springs they are about 160-170 for the set with more seat pressure...They are good if you are going to rev the hell out of it. Those will be my next upgrade. I have the .55 gasket with the kit intake cam in the stock cam holes per Coby Adams....BMC Race filter with short stacks but if you are going to roadrace it I suggest use the stock stacks and a good map. My .02

quick question, with these port jobs and polishing etc what are the compression ratio. I know the stock ratio is 12.7:1 Porting and polishing the head doesn't change the compression ratio. They are bumping up the compression a little bit with the thin head gasket. That and new pistons can change the compression ratio. But my bike bore is somewheres around 13:1. To get much higher, the head has to be decked. Compression makes power but also destroys motors.